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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
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LangCleg · 11/12/2017 09:14

I know a trans couple with a little girl. Lovely family.

What everybody else said. It's not about individuals.

I count three trans people in my friendship group. One of whom I've known for almost thirty years and is among my closest friends. All three oppose any amendments to the GRA to make it self-ID. All three are opposed to medicalised childhood transition or pro-gender identity theory propaganda in schools.

It's not about individuals. It's about sex being a protected class and the maintenance of that as vital for women's rights.

daimbar · 11/12/2017 09:16

Sunshine the OP’s post is not directed at trans activists? it is inciting hate at regular trans women. Trans women who wish to work in health care or become midwives (why shouldn’t they?). Making out young people are transitioning just to win on sports day, that transgender women in female toilets are likely to commit assault.

This isn’t a post fighting trans activists at all, it is stirring up hate against ordinary trans women which is just ignorant and mean.

KnittingNancy2017 · 11/12/2017 09:21

I do something artsy and have a group of friends where a lot are gay/bi/asexual and/or gender non-conforming (mostly female born).

There are so many labels! I once said in a jokey way about how I felt a bit the odd one out being the only straight one and got the reply "I'm pretty sure you're demisexual actually". I wouldn't call myself that (fussy, more like!) but it didn't really bother me.

On the other hand, saying that I didn't like being called cis got the response "so you're saying you're non-binary then?". No! I'm just me - we shouldn't gender things, then it doesn't matter who does/wears them. But then you get "well it's easy for you - you conform to most stereotypes" - yes, but probably because I've been socialised to, rather than having an innate desire to wear skirts and like baking...

The odd thing was that comment was from a lesbian who stopped dating somebody because they transitioned FtM Confused

The problem is though as a straight cis white female, I have lots of privelidge apparently. The only other person in that group who supported me is a gay white man - so he isn't that oppressed either Hmm

I just don't talk about it. But I really dislike all these tiny labelled boxes!

Ereshkigal · 11/12/2017 09:24

Trans women who wish to work in health care or become midwives (why shouldn’t they?).

No one is saying they can't. But they are male nurses, doctors and midwives and shouldn't be offered as the only choice between them and another man if a female patient wants a woman HCP.

LangCleg · 11/12/2017 09:25

daimbar

No. The OP is pointing out that self-ID will remove choice from women and girls. Of course a trans identified person - of either birth sex - should be able to become a midwife. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. But women and girls should continue to have the right to request a midwife of their own birth sex. Self-ID removes this. You are being ignorant and mean to suggest that they shouldn't have that right.

hipsterfun · 11/12/2017 09:26

daim, your comprehension doesn’t seem too good; OP is not saying that transgender women in female toilets are likely to commit assault, rather that under self-ID any bloke with harmful intent can go into a women’s space unchallenged, simply by claiming to be a woman.

Is it that difficult for you to see the problem?

Ereshkigal · 11/12/2017 09:28

Why don't you have any empathy for women Daim?

KnittingNancy2017 · 11/12/2017 09:32

Or privelege as it's more commonly spelt!

I really hate this "privelege pyramid". So if you have less privelege you can call people what you like and they have to agree or are being bigoted, but if they call you something you don't like then they're still a bigot?

KnittingNancy2017 · 11/12/2017 09:34

FFS!! Privilege

hipsterfun · 11/12/2017 09:36

Privilege.

Easy if you remember that ‘I, I’ comes first Wink

KnittingNancy2017 · 11/12/2017 09:41

Thank you Grin I will remember that! Funnily enough I can spell it fine writing because it's how the shape of the word looks. Typing fast and with no spell check doesn't work so well...

Anyway, I dislike how my apparently superior privilege is used to say "I just don't understand". And then I worry that actually I don't understand and am at risk of not being inclusive. Although I don't really care as long as the person is nice so wouldn't include/not include somebody based on that anyway Confused

daimbar · 11/12/2017 09:50

I would have exactly the same amount of empathy for a woman refusing to receive healthcare from a trans midwife as I would for a white woman refusing to be treated by a black midwife. And that would be zero.

If anyone seriously thinks transgender midwifes have a sinister ulterior motive they need their heads examined.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 11/12/2017 09:53

carrot what a brilliant piece of writing. Of course, if you published it in a wider setting people would say it's extreme and minimise and dismiss, but I really don't think it is extreme. This is the future the GRA will usher in because in all of the situations you describe, the GRA would mean to question the men presenting as women would be hate speech.

The one in the care home resonates for me as I have a friend who got very, very distressed because she had male carers in a care home, and her mental and physical health deteriorated massively. She'd always been such a private, independent person, and I think being in a care home at all was hard, but she just couldn't cope with the male carers. Of course, with the metoo movement hopefully everyone is aware why a frail, elderly woman might feel upset and distressed by having unfamiliar males doing care tasks (apart from anything else unless she lived in a box her whole life she probably suffered from some degree of sexual harassment at some point). But of course, who cares what an elderly, infirm woman thinks, right? That seems to be the message right now. It's so distressing.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/12/2017 09:53

Hate is a very strong word. Hate leads to crimes like this one in Montreal in 1989 where 14 women were killed for being women, or to this one, in the news again last week, where an abusive, controlling man killed his wife and daughter because his wife had left him.

It devalues the word to use it to describe someone trying to question a proposed new law which she has serious concerns about.

Annorlunda5 · 11/12/2017 09:54

Sloth

When I had to speak to a doctor about my menstrual problems, the receptionist said that I could have a female doctor if I felt more comfortable, and I asked for one. Are you really saying I shouldn't be allowed that choice anymore? That when I walk into that doctor's room expecting a female, I am instead greeted by a self-identified woman who is actually male... And that's OK?

Annorlunda5 · 11/12/2017 09:56

Daimbar

I don't want to be examined by a male. Transwomen are make. Females cannot be transwomen.

Annorlunda5 · 11/12/2017 09:57

*male

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/12/2017 09:57

I would have exactly the same amount of empathy for a woman refusing to receive healthcare from a trans midwife as I would for a white woman refusing to be treated by a black midwife. And that would be zero.

Good grief. I've seen many, many threads on MN over the years where women who have been sexually abused or attacked in the past have talked about how difficult it is for them to cope with smear tests or any other gynae exams. In many cases for obvious reasons it's harder for them to cope when it's a man doing the examining. But you'd have no empathy for those women.

This is nothing at all like refusing to be treated by a person of another religion or race.

SparklyUnicornTractors · 11/12/2017 09:59

So basically we're down to transwomen must be believed to be biological women and there is no room for any woman in your world who cannot twist her mind around that lie or put aside their own feelings to accommodate it.

So that's Muslim women with no access to health care then. Jewish women. Women who have been raped or abused and are afraid of men. Lesbian women who have never had intimidate contact with a man and don't want to.

I'd have no bloody problem with a trans midwife or trans nurse caring for me, but I'm not so arrogant to say that all women must be and do the same or they're stupid and wrong.

Datun · 11/12/2017 10:04

daimbar

You’re not getting it. And I think this is the reason. You are seeing this as an issue about trans-people.

It’s not. It’s about changing the definition of the word woman. It’s a subtle difference. It could be all Sagittarians who were doing it.

Plenty of people know trans-people. Plenty of people on here are trans people.

Of course a transwoman should be able to become a midwife, or nurse, or a gynaecologist. But they will still be male. And many women have a problem with intimate examinations from someone of the opposite sex.

There is also the real and specific cohort amongst transwomen who fetishise women’s biology.

This is not the fault of women.

Women can not the blame for the very rational reasons why they may not want a male HCP. Any male, whether trans or not.

Some very influential men are managing to remove women’s choice in this. Remove women’s choice over whether they can retain protections based on sex. Protections which are in place, which women have had to fight for.

Women have had to fight to be represented in sport. Women have had to fight for their own public toilets, etc. For the very reason that they were needed.

If women didn’t need sex based protections, we could all pack up and go home.

This is not women’s fault, nor is it their responsibility.

If self identification goes through it will eliminate these protections. Not just giving access to trans people but to any and every man. And who are the people you imagine will exploit this? Who would want to?

And although, I understand you are coming from a kind place and you want to be inclusive, it is really grossly unfair to expect 51 percent of the population to lose this protection based on less than one percent of the population, who happen to be mostly men.

Nice, decent men wouldn’t dream of intimidating women. My DH, for instance wouldn’t, ever, demand access to a women’s space, because he understands full well it will make the women uncomfortable.

So the people who are demanding this, are neither nice, nor decent.

Of course, it is not genuine transsexuals who are doing this. It’s not they who present a problem.

But if sex segregation disappears, and everyone has a free for all, the people who will suffer the most will be women and genuine transsexuals.

You are absolutely right, that they will get tarred with the same brush. But again, that is not women’s fault nor their responsibility.

We are not the world’s mopper uppers.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 11/12/2017 10:05

Daimbar
"I would have exactly the same amount of empathy for a woman refusing to receive healthcare from a trans midwife as I would for a white woman refusing to be treated by a black midwife"

What kind of foolery is this? Male and Females are different. Transwomen are male, not female. As a sexual assault victim I do not consent to a male intimately examining me. You can fuck off with your accusations of bigotry. I and other women expect bodily privacy. How dare you? Who are you to take these decisions for other women? It's breathtaking arrogance. And abusive

LangCleg · 11/12/2017 10:05

daimbar

Please don't bring race into it. Transactivists and their supporters can't have it both ways. Can't simultaneously argue that it's offensive for a white person - as that Rachel woman - to self-ID as a black person, while also arguing that objecting to self-ID from man to woman is akin to racism.

Aeroflotgirl · 11/12/2017 10:09

No daim that is a bad comparison. A transwiman is still biologically a man, there is very valid reasons why awoman might not want a man seeing her most intimate areas(rape, abuse, assault, religion). She should be treated in the same respect that she would if she requested a female doctor, and not a male one.

Aeroflotgirl · 11/12/2017 10:12

There are conversations about intimate health, that a woman might prefer a female HCP and only they might understand being a bio woman themselves.you would not expect a white person who identified as being black, to chair the Black and African committee, it would be offensive and unacceptable same with sex.

Lancelottie · 11/12/2017 10:13

Daimbar, I can't even begin to respond to your statement without stopping about six times to breathe and remove the swear words.

In your (limited) experience most transwomen are lovely. In my (limited) experience, most men are lovely.

They are still, universally, male. And I want a woman for intimate care for my sake, not theirs.

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