Labour MP Jess Phillips being attacked on Twitter for her reasonable approach to gender bill

[BrightonBeachLady]

I quite admire her tone of weary impatience, but if anyone is on Twitter and wants to thank/support her, here is the link: twitter.com/jessphillips/status/931093574011191296

I completely agree, I am fundamental in my views.

And you know all the reasons why!

sagamartha
It's great isn't it? Datun and most of us believing in fundamental biology and science - a woman is a woman and a transgender woman is a transgender woman.
And we keep on believing this despite all these activists people popping up and telling us we're wrong. Funny that.

Datun has a fundamental view that transwomen are fantasists who are sexually excited by being seen as female. Is that the same view of activists on here?

Datun has a fundamental view that transwomen are fantasists who are sexually excited by being seen as female. Is that the same view of activists on here?

saga, now you know that’s not true.

Autogynephiles are “fantasists who are sexually excited by being seen as female.”

Piss poor attempt to smear Datun Saga. Would love to see you debate her though. Go on go on, we will bring popcorn

Datun has a fundamental view that transwomen are fantasists who are sexually excited by being seen as female. Is that the same view of activists on here?

Your posts say you're gender critical but all I see from your posts across many threads is misrepresentation like this and continual "you're wrong" statements.

Assuming you want to persuade people of something, wouldn't it be best to keep to factual stuff and not tell people they're wrong all of the time? You just seem to be in permanent "start a fight" mode.

Datun said that she believes that even those transwomen who undergo surgery are fantasists who need a man as a prop. It seems like a fundamental view she has.

Actually, my reading of that post was that Datun said you couldn’t assume “bottom surgery” was a definitive indicator of dysphoric TIM (vs AGP) because some AGP TIM would take it that far. Which is quite different from what you asserted...

Nope.

Some autogynephiles will go on to have surgery. Because it is the ultimate in becoming a woman. Having ‘sex as a woman’ is the pinnacle.

Then how is it that the rest of us seem to get that she's saying that because there's a bad element among trans activists, indiscriminate access to women's spaces will carry unacceptable risks?

Why does her "some" have to become your "all"?

I think she possibly also has a fundamental view that it takes more than cutting someone's dick off and giving them some pills to make a woman. A view many of us share. I'm personally happy to be convinced that that's possible though if someone could just define 'woman' in a way that includes that.

Until she's shouting 'die bitch' at people who disagree though we'd have to say she's NOT as bad as transactivists wouldn't we?

sagamartha and one that is shared with a number of people, not just here on Mumsnet.

AGP is a strange and frankly creepy illness.

XX = Female
XY = Male
Intersex = whatever works for the individual
Transexuals are not intersex

That's it. There's the fundamental, in your face, harsh reality, biology.

No amount of wishing, hoping, bullying, harassing and violence makes it otherwise.

But anyway, well done sagamartha. Another thread that you're hoping to tip over into a fight.

sagamartha Go back and read the statement again, you sound like you are being disingenuous. The people currently running a smear campaign against Linda Bellos are using a similar tactic.

You just seem to be in permanent "start a fight" mode.

That's a very goady statement, almost like you're trying to start a fight.

Datun has done an excellent job in persuading many people over time on MN as seen from many "now I get it" posts. I don't think she needs any tips from the tone police.

saga you and I have already had this conversation. A few days ago.

Where I said:

Right, for the benefit of sagamartha, Men who are transgender are not all the same.

Transsexuals who have gender dysphoria have peoples sympathy and compassion.

Autogynephiles, chancers and predators are the problem.

And I reiterated, for the purposes of that thread, that I was addressing the second group.

Where I also said to you:

No-one with the slightest amount of information thinks that transgender men are all the same.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3078526-To-be-shocked-at-the-sheer-amount-of-hatred-and-ignorance-about-transpeople-on-mumsnet

You know it, I know it and anyone who can read knows it.

I know you have an entirely different agenda to me and you have my sympathy for your personal viewpoint.

As I’ve said to you before, this isn’t about individuals.

We will continue to disagree, I am sure. But it’s a bit of a waste of time attributing things to me that you know I don’t think. Or say.

I think you might have misread my post FloraFox.

But anyway, it does illustrate how misunderstandings happen all over the place when "start a fight" posters start doing their thing.

I think nauticant was talking about saga starting a fight, not me.

I think nauticant was talking about saga starting a fight, not me.

Although I agree that having genital surgery demonstrates a certain level of commitment, I don’t think it’s that simple

Having surgery is a life saver for many. Not a certain level of commitment.

It's that simple for many transwomen.

You are way out of your league Saga, Give it up, you are embarrassing yourself

sagamartha

I’m sure it is. But my comment was to be applied to the context of what having males in female spaces means to women. Not the men who have the surgery.

Whilst I sympathise with someone whose gender dysphoria is only solved by surgery, it doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference in being able to tell them apart from an autogynephile.

Having surgery, whilst to you personally is vital, cannot be used as a distinction.

And your view on transwomen is basically they are homosexual men who are ultra feminine in their nature?

Or have I misinterpreted that as well?

And you know what saga, I’m sure it’s incredibly distressing for you that a distinction cannot be made.

It would piss me right off, if I had gone to great lengths, and personal cost to be considered legitimately transsexual, only to have your position usurped by a bunch of fetishist men. Not only usurped but discredited and undermined.

The same way it pisses me right off to have my status as a woman usurped. And discredited and undermined.

The same way it pisses me right off to have my status as a woman usurped. And discredited and undermined

I agree

And you know what saga, I’m sure it’s incredibly distressing for you that a distinction cannot be made

It is.

This whole debate and constant media commentary really worries me. I haven't really been subject to physical and verbal abuse for a while and I just want to keep my head down and get by. I really worry that all this media coverage will affect the way people like me are seen - and all the effects of that.

The transactivists fundamental views help no one.