Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

[popcorn]

I have no idea.
Because when I do challenge those things at home (with H or wth my own father) they all react along the same lines. It’s either

• yes you’re right. So often men don’t get involved enough (but not ME)
• then the incomprehension ‘is it really that much work/is that wide spread/that much of a problem’
• or they get most upset to be called on their lack of involvement because they se themselves as good men who do help around the house, people who do treat women as equal etc... and telling them that actually it’s not quite the case is an insult.

The reality is that they will take it as insult no matter what because facing to the fact they actually aren’t really sharing the workload 50/50 also means that they have to face the fact that they are not who they think they are.

I think it’s not helped by the fact that, for most people (men and women), when a man is taking his dcs to do a sport, does some cooking and a bit of ironing, he is seeing as some sort of God who is ever so good and ever so helpful and really sharing the workload.

vioso my own little experiment has been in letting DH sorting Christmas for his family. So for a few years, we’ve had a hamper for his parents (more or less always the same stuff and often things they don’t touch so is still there a year later...), and inappropriate gifts for his niece and nephew (think pink scarf for his nephew etc...).
I’m still refusing to get involved but I can see my SIL is blaming ME for the crap gifts.... (MIL knows and will thank me profusely when I do add a little bit of something to it - it’s so obvious!)

Sorry that was to windy

Good point about ‘Great man theory’ too

Actually that probably goes with my last point.
If they see themselves as doing it all on their own, being great men and also being great father/husband that share all the workload 50/50, recognising the fact that women are facilitators is shattering the whole view they have of themselves.

Tbf, this cant be an easy thing to do.

Raging I suppose if no one ever mentions that you are a product of many people's support then you'd be surprised to hear it. And would highly doubt it.

As I noted on the earlier thread my boss (a Director) has 3 PAs. He will acknowledge the work and support but any plaudits are for him alone. The work they do merely aids and abets him but he is 'the great mind that is driving the machine.'

Also men who are working at a senior level live in a work setting where they often aren't told NO and where people kowtow to them - and this is on a daily basis.

I don't know what the answer is but I'm going to start talking about it more because that seems to the best thing to do - to make the invisible visible.

AntiGrinch, what you describe is commonplace and ‘normal’ as in ‘to be expected’ . It is sad that ‘mother comes last’ is a default setting and women are so brainwashed from birth, they just go with it until years later like LeCroissant or myself, you wake up and smell the coffee. Who says my needs must come last after everybody else? Why? Any good reason?

And you realise there is no good reason for such treatment. The problem is other people have also been brainwashed from birth that Mom is there for everyone else and hasn’t got her own needs or wants, or indeed she doesn’t mind not having her needs or wants. This is so wrong. Men won’t accept being treated like that.

As the society is set up this way, the onus was on me to assert my worth as a person after children. To point out I also want to have my Christmas dinner is peace and while it is still warm. To have leisure time of my own. People just assume you don’t need it or want it once you are a mother. Well, spell it out if you have to, and educate as to what you do that’s so important.

The problem is there is no narrative for valuable work that mothers do. It was a revelation to read the book ‘What Mothers Do’. We do truckloads of really important stuff when you actually break it down, but the author Naomi Campbell was the first person for me who actually named those things and given it value and worth. A must read for all new mothers.

When my DD (second child) was born and never ever slept, my MIL said to me in all seriousness, 'isn't mother nature great? Us mums don't really need sleep once a baby is here.' I mean, WTAF? I didn't need sleep - what the fuck am I - the bionic woman??? There was a definite edge of her trying to get me to stop complaining/stop expecting her beloved son to step up - the message was - you're the mum, you have to do it, your needs don't matter.

This thread has been really interesting and got me thinking. It's not just in the home/at work - in the sports club I belong too, there is a lot of men being facilitated by women who do all the hard work. The men take the credit, and automatically assuming their right to make decisions.

There are formal event 'roles' with clear responsibilities, and a number of the men took great umbrage when I, in my role as the overall organiser made a decision they disagreed with (I, of course, consulted first). They were used to decreeing and it being done, and could not handle me doing my role. Some of them got angry, and I was still getting emails for a couple of weeks afterwards telling me what I should have done.

But I've realised that I have been enabling this, letting a male committee member take credit for work I have been doing, by omission. So thanks to this thread I emailed the whole committee with my update, and forward direction, rather than sending it to him to present. Small steps...

Maybe there should be a one day strike, a no facilitation day. Women step up to the plate and men do it all for one day. I doubt this would go down as well as, say, Movember.

85% are dealing with fact that so many have no idea how to deal with any car issues whatsoever. Very significant percentage has NO idea whatsoever about the house finances. A large number have never changed done any DIY at all in the house. Many refer to never having mowed a lawn, some haven’t even changed a light bulb.

Rofl - I do all that too, so I can tell you, that having the cars serviced every 6 months, checking the tyres and oil every couple of weeks, changing the occasional bulb (once every what, 10 years now we're on LED, since I worked out they'd pay for themselves in 4 months), mowing the lawn once a week (if very diligent). Household finances - actually it's all the women I know who did that, from my grandmothers down. But I agree that's some work, once a week to go through, make sure money is in the right places for direct debits, review every six months or so - and of course getting a mortgage is a night mare of paperwork.

You know what though? I get up every morning with the kids and spend the next 1.5 hours getting them ready for school - don't even have time for coffee. Then I grab a shower, and start work myself. Then the kids come home from school (I have skipped lunch so I can finish early to look after them), and I feed them, monitor them, talk to them, supervise homework until it's time for bed - which is officially DP's job, but I have to remind him, and then while he does it I have a quick tidy up. I finally sit down about 8pm. You tell me - do you think those 'men's tasks take up 6.5 hours a day, every day?

Lol at 'I doubt this would go down as well at Movember' - quite

Great thread. Maybe a mass walk out is the answer...

For every hour of paid work, I reckon most women are putting in a similar number of unpaid. It's also at the most frantic and tired parts of the day. It is servicing work.

40 years ago when my own mother was working full time as a widowed parent. The slack was met by me; cooking cleaning and ironing and providing free childcare for younger siblings. Free school buses obviated the need for car school runs. Still a tough gig for my mother, but do able. We seem to be 'on stage' the whole time servicing men who can serve themselves and their kids and filling in the increasingly huge gaps where the welfare state used to be.

Another thing that men get 'facilitated' in in their paid work, is the social aspects of it. Knowing that there's down time during the day to chat, especially at the end of the day, rather than the woman worker's million mile an hour sprint to get to the school run, tea, homework etc.

wishings post makes our point for us. These are intermittent, twice a month at most jobs. In no way if someone does all those jobs are theyeven close to pulling their domestic weight. What we're talking about in terms of facilitation is the day to day stuff to keep everyone clean, fed, organised and healthy.

And all the stuff mentioned? Single / divorced women seem to manage. Personally, I can do all the things mentioned (lawn, finances, lightbulbs) very capably thanks, and being an adult, if I didn't know how to do a basic domestic chore, I'd learn.

How many men run a household and do childcare single-handedly without help (mothers, wives, nannies, nursery, cleaner)?

And yes to a walkout to get this on the political agenda - including the whole aspect of care that the state is failing to fund properly, hoping women will just take up the slack. As I mentioned upthread this seemed to be very effective in Iceland in 1975. www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34602822

Wishing, this is the point men often seem to make to counteract the claims that they do not share the household jobs 50/50. However, it is not comparing like with like. Unless you are doing house renovations every day of your life, it is not the same amount of work as doing three meals a day and clearing up after them, everyday laundry for 4 or 5 people, everyday cleaning etc etc. Jobs that must be done several times a day every day. Car servicing doesn’t, neither does mowing the lawn or even sorting finances (although most women I know do the finances in their families). So, I am sorry, although the jobs you listed do fall under household tasks, they are a drop in the ocean compared to the overall amount of work. The lightbulbs comment is hilarious :)

In fairness, most men got no idea about how much housework and family work there is because they never had to experience it or do it. So, it is blissful ignorance for the majority of men. I know I had to actually tell my DH what I did and how long it took and how hard it was, he just wasn’t aware.

Like Ineedacupoftea’s comment up thread: H comes home and sees the dirty dishes and general dishevelled state of the house. He does not see the breastfeeding his W has been doing (bloody hard work and exhausting), attending to baby’s every need and baby’s needs are tough on you. H does not see if because he hasn’t tried breastfeeding. I have and I know exactly what Ineedacupoftea means.

So, please listen and take note. Remaining ignorant of the amount of work there is is not a fair option.

And 'support services' such as social services actually uphold this attitude of women being solely responsible for 'women's work' - I have first hand experience.

I’ve found this thread and the previous one (though I didn’t read all of it) really interesting. DH and I have a good split when it comes to child care but I still do more around the house.
Women facilitating men is so ingrained, how do we change it?

Tbh for H to become sort of aware, I had to be away for weekends at the weekend. (I was working every other weekend). And to be fair to him, he did step up and dealt with the washing, looking after the dcs etc...
The difference though is that, me going to our favourite place at the time with the dcs in my own was normal. Him going ment endless ‘oh how fantastic are you to go out like this on your own with two young dcs’ (they were 2 and 4 yo at the time)
And it only taught him that washing and cooking and looking after two dcs was hard work. He still hasn’t learnt ANY of the mental load. Nor has he learnt to put his ‘needs/wants’ before his dcs or mines.
He still expects some congratulations if he has cleaned the bathroom. Meanwhile I can clean the kitchen from top to bottom, Giving it a really deep clean, and it doesn’t get noticed... Cue for a very embarrassed look when he wanted to ‘help’ and clean the kitchen ‘for me’ and hadn’t even noticed that the floor, walls etc... had been cleaned less than 24h befire....

Which is also why I dint think a one day walk out would make a big difference. They would probably notice the cooking. But te cleaning, the washing, all the mental load, forms to sign etc... nope. It would left for a day for us to pick up again (and probably not even on purpose but because they wouldn’t even realise it needed doing). Cue again for then to self congratulate onhow good they are and still not seeing the full picture (well at least that’s what has happened in my house).
It’s too deeply ingrained both in men and women.

And ginger actually no I have no idea how to deal with it.
I thought I did. I though I had put boundaries in place. I thought I was teaching my two teenage son to really see women as equal.
I’m realising I have failed aand don’t have either the equality I was striv8ng for nor manage to really teach my dcs (one of them actually think he is really hard in being a boy at school and that girls have it so much easier.... so he has noticed the difference but not the REAL difference such as none of the ‘intelligent people’ in his class are girls. None the ones in the top 5 in mats are girls etc....)

The only way this is going to change is by us modelling healthy balanced relationships to our children and them growing up thinking it is normal. What I find a bit difficult to understand is that if most people contributing to this thread are in healthy relationships where they can talk openly to their partners, why does this imbalance still occur?Surely before you have children you discuss how you will manage that logistically and financially? If your partner makes it clear before you get pregnant that they expect no part in it then you have a choice to make and I would be asking whether I want kids with this person. People should be checking out the flexible working policy of their firms. I was the higher earner but was the one who wanted to stay at home but my husband always did one day a week which allowed me to stay registered and in the workforce and allowed him the experience the insanity of being at home with 3 pre-schoolers. He certainly NEVER moaned about coming home to a mess or a sandwich for tea.We have to make the choices that work for us as a unit. These are our partners and sons we are complaining about. Why are you all putting up with it?!

Yes raging
My husband totally transformed when I started working away 3 dpw. He had to get a slick routine to get kids up and out, dinner cooked, tidied up and kids to bed. He is awesome now and i feel alternately guilty and like a spare part

Why are you all putting up with it?! a lot aren't- many stories of divorce or women talking to their DH / going on strike and finding a more equitable way. However, this thread is partly about the structual things that keep women facilitating men. Good example - I was out yesterday with DH and DDs1 and 2. The baby needed changing. DH set off to do it only to come back and inform me there was only a baby change facility in the womens' loos. Pity any SAHDs that needed to change their baby there.

That should have read SAHDs on their own, but equally any man there with a baby alone....

Why do women put up with it? I would imagine:

1. Their DH/DP is visibly better at doing stuff than other ones: they seem good by comparison (you do hear on here of equitable relationships but I have never actually met a couple where the facilitating wasn't mainly on one of their shoulders - mostly the woman, although I have met some - male - gay couples where one of them seems to be in the 'facilitator' role)
2. Lack of energy to have the same old rows - I winced with familiarity at the previous poster who'd bought her own bed rather than keep arguing about changing the sheets - it would sound really ridiculous if you had to say you'd got divorced over sheets
3. Women tend to get more blame when things are in a mess/aren't done/relatives aren't catered for/phoned back/seen
4. As has been pointed out many many times on this thread and the previous one, inequity creeps up on you gradually.
5. Shame - victim blaming - if the man doesn't pull his weight somehow that's also the woman's fault for not training him/his mother's (never his father's) for not training him - who trained us?!