Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

Is it possible to divide and share the ‘mental load’, or is one partner inevitably the family’s CEO?
When I went part time two years ago, I took on far more domestic tasks.
DW went full time.

We then had numerous discussions about whether I was ‘doing things incorrectly, or simply differently’.
We still haven’t reached a conclusion.

It offends us both when we occasionally hear the comment ‘Aren’t you lucky having a wife to keep you’.

Very interesting discussion, I’ve learnt a lot. Many thanks.

@vdbfamily have you read the whole thread?

And the previous one I mean

@Kmetsch3 I think it’s possible but you have to be very clear about where the division of responsibilities is. Not manager / worker. But co-managers. And accept that the other person may manage things differently from the way you would do it yourself. That’s teamwork.

If I won the lottery I would give up work and spend more time with my children. And outsource all the shite housework.
The only scenarios on this thread where people seem genuinely happy being a SAHM is where they are clearly very wealthy thanks to their high earning husbands. Their life sounds like my lottery scenario above. (Would be interesting to hear the husbands perspective).
For most normal people though, being a SAHM was not a life plan and it has many disadvantages and risks for women. If you aren't wealthy enough to hire help you are doing drudge housework. And the worst thing about it is that once you start on that path it gets very hard to get back to a decent career should you want to. (Though many companies have introduced returnships.)
As per previous poster the ideal seems to be both part time, shared leave, and equal division of domestic tasks. We've managed to get close to this, and I wouldn't change back to full time for either of us now. And from a tax perspective it makes more sense for two people to work part time than one fulll time. Not to mention pensions.

I am The boiled frog too.

vdb re what women want... I think that actually rather than what women want it’s what society want women to want.
When I can to the U.K., it was obvious to me, I wouod be working after having dcs, full time. It never had crossed my mind that I coud be l’art time because in my country, the majority of ow,en (esp if they are well educated) work full time. That’s it. There was very few part time jobs anyway (maybe a few more nowdays).
However after a few years in the U.K., the idea that mums could be working part time that it was ‘normal’ for mothers to be at home stared to creep up so when I was made redundant afetr dc2 (whilst on ML ), it felt logical to stop working. So I did...

And tbh I bitterly regret ever doing that.

Both because that was the point where I became the full on facilitator, because I was missing the mental stimulation but also because it was actually totally in opposition to my own values.
It did teach me that the environment in which you live does have a huge influence on what you do though....

Yes and constantly going against the expectations of your peers and colleagues and environment is exhausting.

LeCroissant, after 20 yewars or so of that same fucking argument, I went for the option of buying my own bed. Aaaaahhhhh... nice, one-person-sized, easy-change sheets and duvets.

Funnily enough, DH now seems to get round to changing 'his' sheets quite often. Sometimes he does it with a sort of come-hither gleam in his eye: 'I've put nice clean sheets on, if you fancied...?'

Glad this thread is back for a second volume. When I opened it yesterday and saw that within four posts there was a "what about the men", I thought it might have gone down the pan, but thankfully it's back on track.

Marking my place so I can keep up.

vdbfamily I think it's fine if a woman wants to stay home and take on the role of facilitator. Many enjoy it. My mum did precisely this, my dad was free to pursue his career and we as children benefitted enormously.
The problem comes when a woman is pressured into it, especially after maternity leave, when she ideally would like to keep her career going but the father won't/can't make any concessions. Her choice is either leave her beloved baby in full time expensive childcare, try go part time to the detriment of her career or give up entirely.
No choices are made in a vacuum.

I would like to add with regards to my mother, she wasn't naive, she made sure she was financially ok - all assets in joint names, half my dad's salary after bills in her own account.
She told me she would never have done it without being married either.
Yes to the mental load, this is something I push back constantly with my DH. It's mental laziness.

Windy posted yesterday that she'd started the original thread to look at different ways men are facilitated.

I facilitate my ex to have a lovely daughter that he sees for a day and a half every other week (plenty of time to get those doting dad photographs up on Facebook).

We separated as he refused to work, do childcare and did fuck all around the house. Before we separated we lived for a couple of years with his mother who had Alzheimer's and needed day to day help with all tasks- dressing, keeping clean, brushing teeth, being given medication, etc. I ended up overseeing/doing everything, while working part time with a horrendous commute.

Ex has never paid any maintenance and most likely never will. When I've discussed going through CMS for maintenance h's accused me of 'threatening him'. I haven't enforced a claim as I refuse to accept £7 a week from his benefits so that he can tell everyone 'he pays what he's required to'.

He's completely facilitated by me in abdicating his responsibility for his child as he knows that I'm conscientious and responsible and will take care of everything. I have a chronic illness but work my arse off in a full-time, demanding professional role and alongside that have done up a house in the last few years (building work, up on scaffolding painting the exterior walls type of stuff. No benefits other than child benefit. Working an all nighter to get a contract delivered, or stopping just for 4 hours sleep is very regular. I get a promotion every year and have massively expanded my remit and responsibility.

While I'm doing that I facilitate ex-DPs freedom to have a girlfriend while I have no chance of having a relationship of my own. (And I don't want a man-I can't add anything to my work load-I want another me, a wife! Ex lives at home with his mother, where there is now a full time live-in carer/housekeeper (female of course, my replacement) so he doesn't have to do anything.

I think ex pursued me because his mother was ailing and money was starting to run low and he needed a mother replacement. I'm sure his new gf is in the dark too about his true situation.

Many men in this country are not supporting their children financially and are facilitated by women in not caring for children.

When I announced to my friends that I was leaving work to to be a trailing spouse several of them were very envious at first and yes it sounds great, hours able to do my own thing, dc at school and plans for cleaners, gardeners etc. But having done this once before I was able to mention the problem of always having to put others first as they have things they have to do and you just have things you want to do. There is no balance of tasks. Everyone starts of being very appreciative of you but this fades. There is also the issue of roles you are showing your dc. Having juggled everything I get the appeal of just stopping but there are real issues with that as well.

Just to add bumble my dh is very clear he likes it best when I am at home full time, he thinks it is good for the kids, the house, the meals he gets. He like not doing dull house stuff. He understands that it drives me gently nuts at times.

* Just to add bumble my dh is very clear he likes it best when I am at home full time, he thinks it is good for the kids, the house,*

And most importantly to him, for him and his career!

mumisnotmyname "they have things they have to do and you just have things you want to do"

YYY!!!

Sophia Tostaya, who was one of the world's greatest facilitators.
Ava6 agree there! And I don't think it's a coincidence that Alexandra Kollontai quantified and mitigated women work as part of post revolutionary Russia.
Some one mentioned Susan Maushart earlier, and I also recommend the pretty hard hitting Rachel Cusk on wife and mother work. Anne Oakley produced academic studies of our work in 1974.
Modern capitalism seems to have enabled the isolation and disempowering of a generation of educated working women.
Thanks for the great thread OP

Thank you for this thread and the last one and for the phrased facilitated man and boiled frog. Brilliant.

I am a fervent feminist and never, ever thought I'd be in this position but I am and it makes me mad as hell. Dh just moaned about taking kids to parties and friends houses and and and that it was just easier to do it. And now they're nearly grown and I've done most of it. He THINKS he's done loads but the last time we argued about it I asked:

What solicitor did we use for our conveyancing?
What is the cleaner's phone number?
When did x last see the dentist / optician?
Have you ever completed an application for a school place?
Have you ever sorted out all school uniforms?

And the answers were either don't know or no. That's just not ok. I earn as much as him. I am senior and well respected at work.

But I feel a failure as a feminist because I still do most of the fucking bastarding tedious fucking wifework, leaving Dh to swan off to work and back again. As someone said, what a waste of women's talent and time it all is. It makes me want to weep, not just for myself but for all the waste and frustration of other women too.

These two threads, there's some really important stuff in here. It's given me a lot to think about (took me about 3 days to read it all, though admittedly I've done work and stuff in between.) I feel I should be doing something at work about some of this, though I am not sure what.

Thank you to everyone (nearly everyone) who has contributed, it's really made me think.

I was listening to a radio show about the founding of Chicago today were the presenter was talking about the role of native Americans and saying that one 'founder' was only able to set up a trading station because he married a Native American lady, she had the links, spoke the language and had the right to trade, so really she should be recognised as a founder of the city. Didn't see any records of her in the history museum but will let DC know about her when we visit it.

Where not were

Just a quick note on hobbies.

I think we as a society need to look at exercise differently. It is important. It gets bunged in with sex appeal, but on a different level it is a basic function of health. Mental health too.

I think when we are working out these schedule conflicts, time for both to exercise should be important.

I am not sure classifying exercise as a hobby is correct.

Think you might be right about that.
I have found these threads very interesting. I'm a SAHM and, yes, I do facilitate DH. But I also am able to be there for my friends who work. I am often their emergency child care because I am at home. I will, when I can, often offer to collect children or give them tea. I only mention it because these threads seem to be focused on the small family unit and I wondered about outside it. I don't really know what it means for this discussion but it seems to relate though I can't quite connect the dots.

I was not a boiled frog. I was a leaping about, pissed off, knowing full well she’s being boiled type of frog!

So now I’m a divorced frog

However the pattern is re-occurring with DS and I’m not very successful at stopping it. Is it different when it’s your children because we still accept that it’s our job to facilitate them?

Placemarking