Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

I have just remembered something. I got DMIL a special cake for her 70th (I couldn't think what to get for a present so I had a professional cake maker do a really nice one that was about her hobby). She was pleased but in what to me was an oddly emotional way. It turned out that in the 50 or so years that she'd got married, she'd never had a birthday cake. I found this sad, although I did think to myself that I'd just jolly well get myself a great cake if no-one else did.

QuentinSummer, your experience proves that men can be as good at home as women, if they were pushed hard enough into it given the opportunity. But the society perpetuates the model of long hours at work, presenteeim, inflexibility and no regard for family or caring commitments. This isn’t good for women who have to go through pregnancy, breastfeeding, caring for an infant, so kind of have to take that time out. It impoverishes men, too, by depriving them of time spent with their children and families. Both men and women should be able to work/ be with their families, it will benefit everyone.

it would sound really ridiculous if you had to say you'd got divorced over sheets

THIS! It's the little stuff that starts to get you - never putting socks in the washing basket, never putting condiments away, never putting the top back on the instant coffee jar and leaving the dripping spoon on the side (when making me a cup of coffee, so you just sound doubly ungrateful), asking me where something is for the kids rather than just going and looking himself - and yet it's all these 30 second jobs that add up to hours of time I'm spending that he isn't, and it matters, but it's hard to persuade yourself that it matters enough to leave.

I found this sad, although I did think to myself that I'd just jolly well get myself a great cake if no-one else did.

It's not the same though is it - you can go out and get all sorts of things, but having someone think about you and get it for you - that's something else, it really is the thought that counts.

When I met my partner I had a successful career, my own house and my own car, plus an active social life. After my DS was born he had many health issues which required regular visits to the children’s hospital and I had to resign from my job as they would not allow me time off required.Although my partner wanted to be there at all appointments it was not financially feasible. And so I resigned from my job to take care of our DS and my partner increased his workload to provide for us financially. Neither him or I have parents to call on as they are deceased, or any close siblings of relatives close by. So now I am a Sahm looking after a lovely boy who can become unwell very very quickly and needs me close by, I work 1 night shift per fortnight to keep my professional registration and my partner works 10-12 hours a day 6 days a week so we can pay the mortgage and have a good standard of living. Whether or not I’m a facilitator I don’t mind. I’ve had a career, I’ve saved lives in my job.ive made a difference. But now I’m here for my son and partner and I enjoy looking after both of them and I make no apologies for it.

ponty first of all I'm sorry about your son being poorly and it is good that you can do that for him. I think it's 'my partner wanted to be there at all appointments' that's quite telling: lots of the women on here are describing relationships where it's quite evident the man wouldn't want to do the things the facilitator does even if he were in a position to.

“having someone think about you and get it for you - that's something else, it really is the thought that counts.”

Yes!

“What I find a bit difficult to understand is that if most people contributing to this thread are in healthy relationships where they can talk openly to their partners, why does this imbalance still occur?”

It’s really, really hard to go against the societal and familial brainwashing even if you WANT to. You have to be forced into it by circumstances like the poster who started working away 3dpw. I speak from personal experience too.

“i don't know what the answer is but I'm going to start talking about it more because that seems to the best thing to do - to make the invisible visible.”

My dh is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination (...did anyone read my car tax/MOT fiasco?!! Sure, that’s a manly job ) but I am happy that he is (1) self aware enough to know his own biases (2) regularly calls other men out on saying things like ”it didn’t make any sense for my wife to work after kids”. I feel like we have an approximately equal relationship (although I bear most of the mental load).

Quite simply and coldly, I can demand “equality” as I have the financial power and independence to do so. I don’t think that “equal paying jobs” give women that negotiating power because they are already on the back foot for other reasons. I have had to outperform him to justify 50-50. And he is a feminist ally. And I am not even sure I get it! But it’s a damn sight closer than a lot of my peers. Sorry but he who pays the piper.....

Disclaimer: I don’t think the solution is we all become hard nosed career bitches like me. But I’m trying to make the point about who currently holds the power and why. What makes men give up some privilege in the current system. You unfortunately have to beat them at their own game.

“Also men who are working at a senior level live in a work setting where they often aren't told NO and where people kowtow to them - and this is on a daily basis. “

Don’t get me started... especially when that man decides everyone’s bonuses!!!

Surely before you have children you discuss how you will manage that logistically and financially? If your partner makes it clear before you get pregnant that they expect no part in it then you have a choice to make and I would be asking whether I want kids with this person

Erm, I'm not sure that blokes who aren't going to step up and do an equal share have both decided this and are willing to articulate it before TTC. There are certainly men who do, if some of the posts on here are to be believed. But do you genuinely think none of the women describing the frog boil facilitation did this before having children? I mean, nobody actually understands what having kids is like before having them, let's be honest.

Also, how many women on the thread have described men who think they do in fact pick up 50% but actually do far less?

🙋🏻‍♀️

True. And it's not like they'd have been any better qualified to define what 50% is before even experiencing kids!

Last year I had a really full-on teaching job. I had to teach 6 days a week and most of the rest of my time at home was spent planning lessons or frantically trying to work out how to get the laundry done before Monday. DH did step up. He did more childcare, more bedtimes, the bulk of the pick ups and drop offs, looked after DD most of Saturday, etc. He also got depressed, anxious and very unfit because he couldn't think when to exercise and we were arguing a lot due to competitive tiredness.

He was probably doing 50% overall because I was still planning and booking everything, plus doing the holiday childcare. I realised he had very little experience with taking care of his own needs when several other things/people had to come first, whereas I'd been balancing what he and DD needed against what I needed for several years (and before that, managing unrealistic employer expectations/managing multiple clients all wanting stuff doing at the same time when I was self-employed/sorting out my own social life when he would go off cycling pretty much every weekend/booking cleaners so we could stop having tedious arguments about housework).

Overall, I felt like he got into more of a state than I would have if the roles were reversed. This may be our different personalities but I think there was definitely an element of it being quite hard at age 50 to have to facilitate.

Needless to say, I have changed job and reduced my hours as the knock-on stress on me was too great.

My DH is great in a crisis and very child focused so will happily drop everything at work and rush to hospital, I know this because he has done it. However he has no idea when the DC finish their various clubs at school, he often books things and clash with regular appointments at home. It is the routine stuff he gives no head space to.

We did out best to work out a fair share of work before we had kids but we never had a conversation that went, "I know you studied for years DW and have a challenging and rewarding career, sadly I'm going to ask to you to give it up so the whole family can have a fantastic experience, great quality of life and don't forget my bonus will be more than your pay for the whole year." We both did our best but some of the realities of having DC weren't obvious until they were here and has been said this creeps up slowly. It took ten years for us to get here.

I may also have been heard to say, "I am not a member of your staff team, I do not need instructions".

This chap seems very well facilitated (he has 3 kids): www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/16/benedict-allen-british-explorer-benedict-allen-found-alive-in-papua-new-guinea

DH may only change the sheets under duress and he very much likes his own company, but he's never let me wonder if he's alive for a month while he treks in the remotest place he can find, without a phone or GPS...!

That is very true phin it could be worse !

"Benedict is old school. That’s the way he likes to do his projects. He likes that feeling of complete freedom."

FFS.

I read it over lunch today (given that I have had to reduce to an 0.5 contract to make time for my facilitation duties, I like to go to an exercise class and have a leisurely lunch on my day 'off' ) and nearly spat coffee over his manly photo.

These threads have been so interesting.

DP lived alone for a long time before we got together, as did I, so I think that helps in that he's used to fending for himself in some ways - although still quite facilitated by his parents in a lot of ways (at 40). He always notices when the bin needs emptying/dishwasher needs emptying etc and gets on and does it. He works from home so more often than not he'll have walked the dog and cooked dinner by the time I get home. The kitchen is generally spotless and that's down to him, and he's tidier than I am. On the other hand he never seems to spot the bathroom needs cleaning or towels need washing, but overall domestic stuff is a fairly even split. He does like to make things a joint endeavour though, which gets to me as I'd rather do the food shopping alone without having to discuss the relative merits of every bloody item, or let him get on with it it whist I do something else. I find it hard to balance my standards/expectations being a bit higher in some areas - e.g. he doesn't really do thoughtful gifts for his family. The first few christmasses together I fell into trying to find thoughtful presents for his parents because They're lovely and I felt they deserved it, but my family is like 6 times the size of his and he's never once worried/asked or even thought about what we're getting them. So I've stopped myself - they're his parents, if he says they're happy with a book and a voucher each then so be it. I still feel guilty, or like they'll think badly of me but that's ridiculous because he's their son! Same with social things - I make plans with friends and family, invite them over etc etc. I started trying to organise things with his friends but these days I just leave him to it.

We are ttc and this thread has made me think we need some more in depth conversations about how we see things working if we are successful. I earn more but I do somehow envisage myself doing most of the childcare/being the one that goes part time.

Oh and ironing - his mum did his till I moved in, and still does any chance she gets. He can't iron and has suggested I 'teach' him but I can't be arsed and just end up doing it. I do trade it for something else e.g. I'll iron your stuff if you hoover and change the beds, but it does still piss me off that he got to 40 without learning to iron a bloody shirt but I don't see why I should be the one to teach him either. Before we moved in together I'd sometimes pay to get my ironing done as I just couldn't be bothered/didn't have the time and he actually tutted at me for it - this was before I realised mummy did his for him, I gave him hell about that when I realised. How was he not embarrassed?

I remember saying before going on my first mat leave that I didn't know how I was going to fill my time at home with a baby Because until you are doing it, it really is impossible to comprehend how getting in the shower is suddenly a monumental challenge.

I am reminded of that "tale" that goes around on FB occasionally:

A man came home from work and found his three children outside, still in their pajamas, playing in the mud, with empty food boxes and wrappers strewn all around the front yard.

The door of his wife’s car was open, as was the front door to the house and there was no sign of the dog.

Proceeding into the entry, he found an even bigger mess. A lamp had been knocked over, and the throw rug was wadded against one wall.

In the front room the TV was loudly blaring a cartoon channel, and the family room was strewn with toys and various items of clothing.

In the kitchen, dishes filled the sink, breakfast food was spilled on the counter, the fridge door was open wide, dog food was spilled on the floor, a broken glass lay under the table, and a small pile of sand was spread by the back door.

He quickly headed up the stairs, stepping over toys and more piles of clothes, looking for his wife. He was worried she might be ill, or that something serious had happened.

He was met with a small trickle of water as it made its way out the bathroom door.

As he peered inside he found wet towels, scummy soap, and more toys strewn over the floor. Miles of toilet paper lay in a heap and toothpaste had been smeared over the mirror and walls.

As he rushed to the bedroom, he found his wife still curled up in the bed in her pajamas, reading a novel.

She looked up at him, smiled, and asked how his day went. He looked at her bewildered and asked:

“What happened here today?’”

She again smiled and answered, “You know every day when you come home from work and you ask me what in the world I do all day?”

“Yes,” was his incredulous reply.

She answered, ‘”Well, today I didn’t do it.”

I also remember being very emotional at a leaving do, as I realised that it was the very first time that someone had got a cake made professionally just for me (plenty of lovely home made cakes over the years, but nothing made and decorated especially for me by a pro)

My main problem is I know I do 95% of the work in our household, but dh genuinely thinks this isn't the case! I do all the laundry, all the cleaning, all the bag sorting, activity sorting etc. He deliberately goes in to work early (flexible job) so I have to do mornings myself (4dc - 11m, 3yr, 6yr, 8yr). I work 28 hours a week in a much more difficult and stressful job than him (he acknowledges this). Also I have very lucrative readily available overtime, so I often end up doing at least one extra long shift a week - taking me to forty hours. This week I have had one day off in nine. I went on a two day training course in London on my usual off days. Dh took the time off to look after the children. On my one day off I had cleaned and tidied whole house and done all washing and ironing. The two days I had then worked I kept the place tidy (doing washing up making beds etc). Then came to my two day course... I was out at 6am back at 7pm. Came in to no dinner the first night, and lots of general untidiness. I huffed a bit. I said why didn't you make the beds. He said "too many cushions, I am not wasting my time on that". Next day came in. He has cooked but the mess had escalated. The toddler had wet the bed, he hadn't stripped it he had left it for me-he had put the toddler in another bed to sleep.
When I got angry, he looked aghast. "but but I had to go to music group with the children" (1.5 hours, straight after school run, I do it every week) "but I cooked dinner", thrown together meal, leaving all the sides in the kitchen covered in debris. "but I did the washing up" (he had washed up six plates, but left the pans... As he doesn't like doing them) and finally "but I took these two days off for you, so you could go on your course"

I don't know what to do. Whenever we talk about it he just says he does loads more than anyone else he knows. He says I can't expect him to be as good as me. He says he doesn't understand the laundry system (ffs). Because I work shifts we do have a pretty equal split in childcare. Also he does most of the night waking for the baby (about four times a week). But it's none of the boring day to day grunt work. But he genuinely thinks he is doing loads..... Actually says "I couldn't physically do anymore"....

Yeah that’s part of it, DH thinks he’s doing loads. He is great with DS but housework not so much. But he says my standards are too high and I should chill out about it. I would like to relax more and in the immortal words of Elsa Let it Go but I can’t.
We could have more of a discussion about splitting things more evenly around the house but I also need to break out of thinking that it’s my responsibility. But I have no idea how to unravel that conditioning.

Very interesting thread and have been reading along. I don't have children so it's easier for me to 'compete' at work (full time worker) but I am also fortunate that my company is flexible with working hours which benefits both men and women and it's not unusual to hear a man saying they were leaving early to do the school run or to attend other events. A few men also work part time or do compressed hours.

At home it is so easy to do the boiled frog thing with the wife work and I have been guilty of that. Now I outsource the cleaning but still find myself taking on the mental load but it's getting better because I am more aware of this and try not to take it on as much by default.