Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

Agree that other people's (often unspoken) assumptions are much harder to escape, if you can at all. To me the focus on minutiae "oh but if you just didn't do this or that unimportant thing", whatever the motivation for that focus, the effect is always to drag the focus away from male behaviour back to women.

Yep, if the stereotypes don't get you then the assumptions force you right back into that box. Speaking as a woman who has been pre-emptively discriminated against at work (yknow just in case I have a baby and they've accidentally trusted me with responsibilities, which would be a disaster!)

But can’t you see - we are putting it ourselves. We play a HUGE part in our own additional mental burden. This man ordered pizza and bought a garage birthday cake. And it worked WONDERFULLY!!

I do that - Costco the morning of the party for pizza/fruit/sandwiches - but I can afford to do that - when I was a kid my mum had no choice - we had no money for pre-made food, and no-where to buy it anyway, and my sister is still in that position.

I do make a cake though, because I enjoy it, and I don't count it as a 'burden' or expect DP to do it or help (in fact, he has been known to get annoyed as I sit there evening after evening modelling sugar paste or whatever rather than doing what he wants to do).

But really, this is verging on the split of 'I do the hoovering, he mows the grass) - because a couple of birthday parties a year isn't the issue, it's the daily grind that wears you down.

But can’t you see - we are putting it ourselves. We play a HUGE part in our own additional mental burden. This man ordered pizza and bought a garage birthday cake. And it worked WONDERFULLY!!

But can't you see that this situation just requires low paid workers to pick up the wife work? There's still someone being oppressed on low wages and crap work conditions in order for this man to be able to do that.

The wife work has just been shifted to the service economy, where the work is still undervalued and the only person who benefits is the man who was fairly well off in the first place, by the sounds of it.

Waz - genuine thanks for making me laugh out loud!

Saw this tweet, while not strictly relevant I think it confirms several points raised throughout the discussion:

twitter.com/ananyo/status/938492740832075776

"Women are judged more harshly than men for the same mistake and rewarded less for the same accomplishment. A study shows that is true for surgeons."

www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2017/dec/07/datablog-children-parents-time-read-this-before-you-have-a-baby-especially-if-youre-a-woman

Quantifying (or attempting to) ...

Sorry if already covered, but does anyone write Christmas cards for couples/friends only known to husband/partner?

I used to feel that it was rude that we got cards from his friends (probably, very probably written by their wives/partners), and my husband did not send any unless I did them, or, more latterly, sat him down and made him do them.

Neither he, nor his friends care, but I always had the vague feeling that the wives/partners would be judging ME, bizarrely.

This year, I will remind him, then leave it.

Well, I used to feel the same as you but then when I discovered Mumsnet (and the concept of wifework) I decided to stop writing those cards. Now my reasoning goes: do I know and like this person/couple? Are they likely to send us a card? Do I wish we saw a bit more of them or do I have some news to pass on to them? If so (and I've actually got time), I write them.

I mean, does DH care in the slightest about Christmas cards? Erm, no. He might write his name in a few if I actually put them in front of them and there wasn't anything on TV. Obviously I would buy the cards, write out the addresses, buy the stamps, post them...[I used to even have to keep notes of his friends' children's names as he would forget them].

The number of people who send cards seems to have dropped significantly over the last 5 years or so, which has made this one an easier choice.

...in front of him...

Anatidae that was an interesting article. I looked up to see what else was tagged in that section and found this - which is really depressing:

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/06/fired-for-taking-paternity-leave-dads-fighting-gender-roles-face-uphill-battle

I used to buy Xmas cards, write them, get him to sign them, then I stopped sending any. I think his DM and db may get a card I don't know. I don't send any to anyone and he is now on his own. His team at work are his problem, as are his family. His list of people who had to have a card when I was sorting it was very long, now it is him sorting it I think it is just two people.

Thought this was an interesting Twitter thread:
twitter.com/eveewing/status/938603876009299968
twitter.com/eveewing/status/938604840988696576
twitter.com/eveewing/status/938605514325360640
twitter.com/eveewing/status/938606515971346432
twitter.com/eveewing/status/938607163764805632
twitter.com/eveewing/status/938607904504123398

(Included links to individual tweets in case threading from the first doesn't work well.)

His list of people who had to have a card when I was sorting it was very long, now it is him sorting it I think it is just two people😁🤣😂😄😆

That's a very interesting Twitter thread thanks slightlyglitter👍

That's interesting, Glitter!
I remember an old colleague telling me that she'd commissioned an article from someone I used to work with, because his pieces always read well, and she couldn't understand why he'd written her such a scrambled stream of consciousness this time -- was he OK?

I said, without thinking, 'Oh, he always writes like that. I just used to take the words and rearrange them into coherent thoughts.'

Hmmm...

Just wondering who has been facilitating who in your family this festive season ?

This year I decided that I was not buying the presents or menu planning / shopping/ cooking over the holidays, as I have been doing all of it for the entire 18 years of our marriage . I told DH it was his turn and once we get to 36 years I am willing to do it Year about.

And how did he do @ALLIS0N ?

He did it differently, which is fine.

He asked the kids to email him a list of presents that they wanted, bought them on amazon and shoved them in a bag. No suprises or wrapping.

It wasn’t enough but i had bought some things as a back up in case he let them down.

He cooked a one course Christmas dinner and no other food on the day. I had to buy most of my own stuff as I’m gluten free and he “ forgets” . Otherwise my meal would have been dry turkey and plain veg with no sauce.

He sent no cards , invited no friends or family , bought no Christmas tree or put up decorations. I gave in and bought a tree and decorated as this is one of my favourite parts of Christmas and the kids would have been disappointed.

I also bought crackers - the kids love them but he doesn’t so he wouldn’t buy them.

I have tried to behave as he normally does ( in some ways ).

I have told him to let me know if he needs any help, but otherwise have done little.

I wander into the kitchen just before the meal is ready and ask how I can help. Then when I’m given a specific instruction I ignore it in favour of something I prefer to do.

When he asks “ have you peeled and cooked the potatoes ? “ I look suprised and confused and say “ I’m loading the dishwasher “. Then I put on my “ geez you are so angry and unreasonable , I’m such a martyr “ face.

Immediately after dinner , I leave the kitchen to go to the loo / check my email. Some 20 mins later I return to the kitchen and look suprised when everything is cleared up.

I stay up very late watching TV / MNing. Then in the afternoon I go to bed for a nap for 3 hours because I’m tired and leave him to entertain the kids.

I have NOT told him to chill and relax, as he normally does to me. Nor have I mocked him and said he has “ issues “ when he is rushing around.

I have NOT added the words “ for you “ to every question “. As in “would you like me to go to Lidl’s for you? “ and “ just to let know you I’ve put in a washing for you ?”.

I have NOT disappeared out for the day / evening without notice and then said petulantly “ I just popped out to do X / see Y / have a drink with Z.” ( because using the word popped means that 6 hours is no big deal.

No cleaning or laundry has been done in 8 days. The kids rooms are knee deep in wrapping paper, toys, dirty clothes, cups and plates and damp towels.

I am now cool fun parent who takes them places and leaves DP at home to do the housework . I am not boring parent who nags then to clean their rooms.

It’s the best Christmas I’ve ever had. No wonder men love Christmas, Ive been doing it wrong all my life.

Oh Allison that's madd me smile!!

My husband has facilitated my life and career since our first dc was born but I am a regular lurker here and have been really challenged so I have gradually started first of all asking what I can do to help and now I'm learning to pay more attention and try to copy the way he does things so I can try to do them in the way that works for him. Previously I would give up at the first hurdle because eg. I don't know where he keeps stuff in the kitchen because it's so illogical.

Im glad I made you smile

Although my resolve is weakening and I had to pour some bleach down the loos . And I accidentally told one child to tidy his room.

It just slipped out.

So hard to kick the habit.

I’m not a complete failure though. DH just walked through to the living room from the kitchen to ask me if we had any milk and I managed to reply “ I don’t know “ .

Rather than “ why don’t you check in the sodding fridge yourself? You know that large white box you just walked past in the kitchen. “

Or , more likely “ I’ll just check , oh no we have run out, I will just go out to the all night garage and buy some so you have it for your coffee in the morning “.

But can't you see that this situation just requires low paid workers to pick up the wife work? There's still someone being oppressed on low wages and crap work conditions in order for this man to be able to do that

The wife work has just been shifted to the service economy, where the work is still undervalued and the only person who benefits is the man who was fairly well off in the first place, by the sounds of it

What point are you trying to make here? What you describe is not "wife work". The husband made a sensible decision to buy the stuff in rather than be a martyr by doing it all himself.

I used to be facilitating my ex. He worked in his badly paid "dream job" full time. We have three children so I needed to work and as he made my life difficult (he didn't want me having a job but that's a whole other abusive story) I started working nights in a supermarket full time but instead of 5 days I did 12 hour shifts instead.

The plan was I would then get home take the already dressed children to school sleep until just before 3 and go pick them up. Before I started he had agreed that on his days off he would do all the running around so I could sleep.

The reality was I would feed and tidy before leaving for work, work my ass off stacking shelves for 12 hours come home at 8 to usually them all in bed or sitting around not dressed with the kitchen in a state where he had made dinner. On his days off he would just go out as "it's his day off" so I still had to pick up the kids. He also used to wake me up after a couple of hours sleep but that's another story.

Needless to say those 2 years nearly killed me I became ill, depressed and even considered driving my car into a wall on numerous occasions. My house was a mess, the kids went down hill but at least he had his dream job.

The thing that got to me the most was when I tried to talk to anyone about it all I was told "he's very good for having them over night" , "Why don't you wake up earlier to tidy up?", "well he deserves his day off as he works full time". There was also the feeling that me working was a kind of hobby or that it was me wanting it all so I should just suck it up.

When I got my current admin job I started to see things properly and got myself into a better mental place to escape the abusive relationship and we have never been happier but to this day I'm still shocked at other people's views. Even though I was the main bread winner his job was seen as more important. I got alot of the "Why have children if you don't want to be around to look after them?" Crap.

I think I've lost what I'm trying to say but even if we have moved on in some ways society still seems to believe that it's the woman's job to do the wife work even if that isn't the case for some.