Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

They do contact my dh, but they then try me when he doesn't respond. And then I don't want to be rude. It does cause issues between us. But then he is particularly terrible at communication!

I don't want to be rude

Be rude. They are being rude foisting this wifework on you, because he can't be bothered.

I didn't think my family were particularly progressive, but posts like those on the last few pages make me wonder.
DH deals with his family, I deal with mine.
Always have done, we did that before we met and none of us or our in-laws have seen fit to change.
DH's family contact him to ask what kids want for xmas and birthdays, he sorts out cards and presents for them, and I do my family.
I think I get a slightly easier ride. I have a large but distant family, so have a ton of xmas cards to write and post, but only by presents for my parents and brother.
He has a small, but close family, so only about 15 xmas cards but buys presents for nieces and nephews - seven of them, plus parents and sister.

Sounds silly, but one thing I've found transforming is to get seriously hardass about pronouns.

No more "Have WE done X?" in this household.

If someone wants to know whether I've done a job, they have to ask "Have YOU done X." It stops people hiding the reality from themselves.

Ditto with ownership. God knows there are enough threads on MN along the lines of: "He says WE don't need another car, because WE have a car. But when I want to use it, it's HIS."

For me this is up there with the mantra one MNer introduced for her DP, that every time he left a job lying around he should say aloud "Fuck you, MNer, you do this."

Perking - I completely agree. Pronoun drift is something I noticed happening at work before I had a partner and domestic life - it's the same principle, that senior men have junior women to take care of shitwork and say things like "Can we not just put all that information on a spreadsheet?" Well, yes, I could, but it will take some of my time. I would prefer to be asked: "Anti, please can you put this data on a spreadsheet." The upshot is the same, because he's the boss and you have to do it, but the whole mentality is different.

The second case also doesn't include the word "just", which is a word that should be banned in respect of tasks. I banned myself from using it in my head when I had a baby - because I heard myself saying in my head "I'll just get the washing out and then I'll sit down and have a cup of tea -" and the reality is with a baby, there is no "just" and there is no "then" afterwards. If you need a sit down, have it now, because it could be the only thing you do before the baby wakes up.

I've spent my whole life in a state of delayed gratification "just" getting things out of the way before I can relax, and no men are "justing" their stuff. They relax when they want to, and they honour their enormous mighty tasks

Pro-noun drift - great expression

Oh yes!!!
Actually I tried something a few days ago. We have been looking at schools for the dcs and need to the back to one of them with some documentation.
I haven’t had time to do it (away with work for the day or very long day at work).
I asked him ‘so have YOU send the documents to xxx?’
Cue for a panicky look, ‘err. No I haven’t.’
‘Then maybe YOU should send them to them before the due date, what do you think?’
Panic look on his face again (what were the documents again, where are they, all questions yoU could see whirlwind in his mind).
‘Oh errr yes WE need to do that’ (with a much more confident look which actually means yay that’s fine YOU do it and I can rest again)

I thought it was only H that was doing that. Avoiding stuff in a PA way and by being so ‘immobile’ that you end up doing all those things.

"Where by "we" you mean....?" is a good response to that, I find.

Also "Have we done X?"
Me: "I don't know."
.....

Oh I remember all that
My ex would always say my house my car, shall I do the washing up for you

I think "can you remind me..." is absolutely a way of men refusing to accept the mental load. Even for their own stuff! I used to get so sick of it that on top of my own mental load I was being asked to take responsibility for his also. I used to say "of course, just remind me to remind you". No wonder he left me, I'm such a bitch.

I had to have a chat with DH about all the "could you remind me" guff. I just got so sick of the assumption that my brain was a back up facility to his brain.

"of course, just remind me to remind you"

ROFL - that one's great. The one that is winding me up at the moment is asking the time. We both have phones we use to look up the time. I may have exploded when his alarm (which he always ignores, but which he intentionally set) went of at 6:45, and he rolled over and asked me the time.

I am also Google, and the talking clock - can you just look up how to do XXXXX - NO. You have a phone, a computer, and ipad, I am doing something else, you can look it up!

Fizzy ex used to say "have you got...?" as a way of saying "can you fetch..? as in:"have you got the scissors?" I used to say "no, I haven't". I was supposed to stop whatever I was doing to facilitate his activity.

"the assumption that my brain was a back up facility to his brain" Yes! This has driven me mad for years and I haven't been able to articulate it. DH used to do it when he was driving, he would constantly ask me which way he needed to go, when it was somewhere he'd driven to five or six times before. In the end I got pissed off and refused to tell him and then he would act all hurt about how I wasn't being 'helpful'. More recently I've started putting my foot down and refusing to do his thinking for him and in fairness he is starting to get the message. I found it infuriating and tiring always being asked to take responsibility for little things like that.

Thanks to whoever mentioned the book 'who cooked Adam Smith's dinner' earlier in this thread
I'm reading it now ....finding it very good👍
www.amazon.co.uk/Who-Cooked-Adam-Smiths-Dinner-ebook/dp/B00TOLYFOS/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=who+cooked+adam+smith%27s+dinner&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1512300630&sr=8-1

Ohh, thank you. I've just put that on my to-be-read pile as well.

This thread keeps giving.
Basically a lot of the stuff I’m finding infuriating with H are basically him expected to be facilitated by me.
Lady I’ve had that too.
Where am I supposed to turn? When we have been going to that shop/Road several times.
Or by best one so far ‘would you like the satnav on.’ When HE was driving, HE knew the address and I was basically going for a ride (to avoid being at home on my own again).
Errr no I don’t need to satnav... He looked all hurt etc... when I said even more pissed of when I asked him if he would appreciate it if I was setting it up for him.....

I thought that this would resonate with you all
www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/hey-its-me-a-woke-misogynist-sliding-right-on-into-your-dms
Esp, in light of this thread,
‘But I’m trying, isn’t that enough?’
‘I’m one of the good guys so don’t call me out on my shit’

The thing is, a lot of these examples aren't that bad on their own. I will ask for help with navigating, and DH will do the electronics etc at home. In return I cook and do most of driving DD around.

But it's reciprocal. We both care for and support each other. Otherwise you're just using someone if you don't return the care.

Dh does this.... he asks if the clothes came upstairs.

It used to drive me mad. Nowadays I just laugh and say they haven't grown their wings yet.

Everything that I do is vague (the dishes are washed, the ironing is done etc...) and all the stuff that he does has an "I" in it. (I did the laundry).

After years of being called on it, he seems to get it.

Arrgh, this makes me so furious.

So your labour was just "disappeared" from the household economy, SweetGrapes. Not even claimed by someone else with the lazy "we", but completely vanished into the passive tense. No longer on the balance sheet at all.

Matches perfectly with official statistics where people (women!) who "just" do all the household and family work are described as "economically inactive."

Then they go out to paid jobs and surprise! turns out childcare and elderly care and housework cost money, and now the country's sums don't add up.

Thinking about this last night.

My dear friend passed away and left her husband and 4 year old son.

The boy turned 5. His father organised the party at an oitdoor activity centre. A room was inckided for the birthday tea.
My friend’s husband ordered pizza, which was delivered. The children scoffed it down. Then a plain chocolate cake was eaten (friend husband had stopped at garage on the way and bought cake and candles).
There was a party bag with a whistle and a load of sweets in it.
No decorations, no games (the children made up their own games and then were doing the outside activity).

My son said it was the “best party I’ve ever been to ever in my life!!!”.

We as women make so so much more of parties. I include myself too.
And no doubt many on this thread would regard it as their mental burden.

But can’t you see - we are putting it ourselves. We play a HUGE part in our own additional mental burden. This man ordered pizza and bought a garage birthday cake. And it worked WONDERFULLY!!

Wishing I can 100% guarantee I'm not doing things I don't need to at the moment . Just the washing, housework and looking after 2 kids is more than enough. In fact at DD1s last birthday we ordered pizza, the kids did love it! Interestingly though I felt slightly guilty at such a low effort birthday while DH didn't.

What I think we're discussing here primarily though is the basic stuff, the keep everyone healthy, clean, fed and at school on time stuff, not the one off "nice to do" things. The daily grind of childrearing (and other stuff) which is largely assumed by society and the people in it to be the responsibility of women. Even I fall into this trap myself. Perhaps some women do unnecessary extra tasks (for their kids / family) but if so, why? Why do women do this and (largely) not men?

I don't think it matters whether we're discussing the basic essentials or the cherry on the cake type scenarios. Whether it's the necessary or nice, it's women who are doing it for the children/men etc, and the men are then free (emotionally, time, financially) to focus on their career, their own health etc in a way that women are not.

Even a woman who individually doesn't get caught up in this still doesn't have the same access to a career. She won't be able to network with the men; she will be assumed to want time to spend time with children; she will have stereotypes applied to her that make her seem less suitable for a job; she won't have a cohort of like-minded women to support her; there may even be overt discrimination and/or a workplace that is hostile/unsuitable (like not enough toilets for women in traditionally male workplaces).

So, even the women who actively work against facilitating men are still actually doing that. Men are facilitated just by existing as males. The minutiae of how that facilitation looks like can vary but isn't the main point.

I agree about the parties. I go to a lot of trouble with parties. I enjoy organising them. DD would be delighted with delivery pizza, running about outside and a chocolate cake from the garage (although I suspect I would be judged somewhat by the other mums if I did that - the dad described was probably considered rather heroic for doing it at all in the circumstances).

I have felt oppressed by assumptions a number of times though. When I was about to go on maternity leave and was desperately trying to finish my teacher training first, the 'professional tutor' basically said I shouldn't worry as I'd have more important things on my mind very soon and my priorities would change. Oddly enough, I knew my own mind better than she did and it would have been very inconvenient not to finish the training and have to drag a baby to the final assessment.

My last employer also said (in an assembly of about 600 students and staff) that I was leaving to spend more time with my family. I was leaving to a better job! (which did give me a better work-life balance, but really, it was the job that was the pull factor). He didn't say anything like that about the other people who were leaving.