Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

LeCroissant yes agree with this What should happen of course is that you and your DH accept that, in order to get back into the workplace (something necessary for your long term security/satisfaction) some sacrifices have to be made, by him as well as you and I think he will try. We do feel overall that we have very little wriggle room at the moment though, but hopefully we'll figure something out. We regret coming back to the UK. If we'd stayed abroad I could have afforded to retrain. Our big mistake was assuming I could get a job at close to my previous salary. Also underestimated cost of living here.

That is tough. But in your position I wouldn't accept any suggestion that you have to shoulder all of the personal consequences of the decision - you made that decision together and it didn't work out as well as you'd hoped. It doesn't follow that you now have to disappear into obscurity while your DH gets the best of what can be had. There are ways around it and you should both be able to make the best of it.

Thanks LeCroissant, you put things so well and clearly, have you ever considered politics?! We could do with some women like you setting the country's direction!

It's really helpful as I do tend to make the sacrifices (fall into gender roles) without thinking about it and DH has tended not to think about it either, although we're both beginning to. In some ways we're both boiled frogs as he doesn't want these limited choices for our DDs and I know he preferred the person I was before we had kids. Of course part of his frustration has been that he definitely believed that we (he?) should be able to pretty much have the life we had before children post-children. Of course in no universe is that possible.

I'm always amazed (and I include myself in this) at how well trained women are to disregard their own needs and wants and to look out for everybody else, and how well trained men are to ensure that their needs and wants are met at all times. I had deluded myself into thinking that yes, I needed to make sacrifices, but eventually I would be the priority. It was 12 years into our relationship before I realised that DH had no intention of making me the priority and in fact he had taken all my sacrifices to be his due. The idea of sacrificing for me wasn't even on his radar - if it inconvenienced him he wasn't going to do it. A pretty horrible realisation to have.

Yes, LeCroissant what you just said - agree 100% and it happened to us too. Definitely. DH has seen this happen to his Mum (his Dad does sweet FA around the house and always has done. She now works full time and used to be a SAHM for context), and has always seen that very clearly as unfair. He would be appalled if he thought we were headed in that direction but we were, we definitely were. We didn't even see it.

I definitely resent the idea that the housework is 'my' job and I didn't even manage to articulate that myself for years. Growing up my Dad definitely did as much housework as my Mum when he was at home. Both of them are organised and pick up after themselves (it's amazing when they come to visit to have people around who do that!) For years, Dad ran his own business and Mum worked in that too (part-time) but I think this meant that all work, paid and unpaid was seen as a family endeavour. Though I think my Mum had to chivvy my Dad to get him to pay into a pension for her (he didn't see the need, it was all family money). My Dad also takes my Mum a cup of tea in bed every morning and has for years. Mum and Dad don't see this as unusual. I think it probably is. But my Mum isn't 'lucky' she just has a man that respects the work she's done raising the family and working in the business too. Part of how he shows that is the tea. She does plenty for him too.

I have read the thread thanks. It was ava6 rather piously using words I had used earlier in the thread to say that if the suffragettes hadn't fought back we would never have progressed i.e. That to do the "right" thing I should have made myself and my children unhappy. Resent that.

Taking someone a cup of tea in bed in the morning is such a small thing - it takes, what, five minutes? It is a lovely thing to do, but not necessarily something remarkable or something that needs to be earned. The fact that you see it that way (and many other women would too) says a lot. I mean how to do men earn the privilege of having someone deal with all their laundry? Or is that their due and their right?

LeCroissant, you are storming on this thread (and the other one).

When I had a toddler and a baby I was really upset to discover how when we went out, as a 4, exP would always prioritise EVERYONE's convenience over mine - not just his own. I was really exhausted, tandem breastfeeding etc, and he used to stand there watching me lug the pram out of the boot, etc. I don't know why I didn't say anything - it was just established very early on in our relationship that his convenience was paramount. When it really hit me was when we went out for pizza once and he ordered me (why? why did I obey?) not to take the bumbo for the little one, which I really wanted to do so that I could put both children in a chair each and eat my own dinner. When we got there and the food arrived, I found a way of putting dd2 in the pram in such a way that she could see me and could be happy temporarily for long enough for me to cut up dd1's pizza, my own pizza, and when she eventually grizzled I coudl pick her up and eat my pizza with one hand.

He flapped a hand at where I had put the pram and told me to move it because it might inconvenience a waitress who might want to go near that way at some point in the future. So no dinner, or cold dinner for me, because someone else might want to go the short away around a table, hypothetically.

It is so obvious to me now that he should have been cutting up dd1's pizza, and or holding the baby, and or cutting up my bloody pizza! At the time I was just brainwashed.

I nearly cried the Xmas dd2 was a baby and she was on my lap as bloody always and I was trying to eat my dinner with a fork in one hand. My dad leaned over and cut everything up for me and I felt so exhausted and grateful I got a bit teary

I can guarantee that absolutely nobody said that in order to do the right thing you should have made yourself and your children unhappy Kerala. Totally guarantee it.

Oh Grinch, I think so many women can relate to that situation. My DH wasn't quite so nasty or controlling about the whole thing, but he definitely had the attitude when we went out that he should be able to get on and have his dinner and I could just manage with the baby or babies hanging off me. I did say 'could you please take him so I can eat my food' and he did take the baby but with bad grace as though I was imposing on him.

Anyone been in the thread about what they are embarrassed to admit.

85% are dealing with fact that so many have no idea how to deal with any car issues whatsoever. Very significant percentage has NO idea whatsoever about the house finances. A large number have never changed done any DIY at all in the house. Many refer to never having mowed a lawn, some haven’t even changed a light bulb.

All these jobs picked up by the men in their lives.

Ok, what's your point in the context of this thread Wishing?

Grabs the popcorn...

Kerala I really don’t think anyone should carry in working themselves to the ground in a job they don’t like (and City jobs are very much about that).
I also don’t think anyone in this thread thinks that SAHM are lesser than/should be in work etc...

What I have been saying (and others too) is that the society is putting a lot of pressure on us to be working and be successful at work WHISLT also insisting that we still do all the ‘woman’s work’ of cooking, parenting, keeping the house afloat etc...
And this is setting women to FAIL because when men are successful, they do so thanks to the support they get for their dw.
Somon how would a woman be able to do be as successful whilst at the same time nitbonly not getting any support but also be than support team for the DH??

But this happens because there is NO recognition for the work women do to support their DH, the work YOU do as a SAHM. And until men will recognise the real work involved in running ahouse, I am worried this will always be the same.

wishing honestly? These are often considered as ‘manly’ jobs in the house.
Except that actually nowdays, a heel of lot of men have no idea what to do with a car (that’s why you have the AA), have no idea how to put a shelf up (you call the handyman in your area).
They might be mowing the lawn (but then I’m sure that any of those woman wouod be able to ‘learn’ how to do that pretty quickly) or changing a lightbulb (same).
As for the finances, do you know that women account for about 80% of all purchases? Because they are th ones who do the grocery shopping, buy stuff for the dcs, often look around to organise holidays etc... I think women are pretty clue on regarding finances. Even if they know put spreadsheets together.

until men will recognise the real work involved in running ahouse
wife work strike?
:
www.dw.com/en/women-go-on-black-monday-strike-in-poland-against-abortion-ban/a-35947232
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34602822
broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/gyxbw3/no-rights-no-sex-the-powerful-history-of-women-going-on-strike

Great posts raging
It's a shame we can't find evidence for the things men are embarrassed to admit. Except there wouldn't be any because most men who've never changed a nappy or got up in the night are peversely proud of their masculinity

I wonder if this is the right thread to ask you all to do this little experiment in a week or two -
Ask the men and women around you if they are stressed out with Christmas preparations - this was an eye opener for me last year. Most men replied - my wife is dealing with everything, most women replied - yes, lots to do, I am stressed

I've been doing my own sort of 'experiment' vioso - my DH loves Christmas and is super into organising everything. I've mentioned this to a few women, just in passing, and their reaction is very telling. At first they're surprised, then it's clear they find it odd, then they say 'oh that's really nice,' but all in all I think they're thinking humph, stealth boast. Because for them the idea of a husband who even takes any notice of what needs to be done is impossible.

Incidentally when PILs came for Christmas years ago, my MIL seems actually annoyed that I wasn't more stressed - I think because I wasn't fulfilling my role as a woman?

Oh get to fuck with the daft comments about women admitting they don't sort the cars.
Yes, in couples that does seem to be a task done by men. As does DIY.
But let me think..I was single for 8 years (and i can assure you i have a very impressive toolbox ).. Was sorting the car MOT / service, topping up the windscreen wash and doing the tyre pressure a massive bind?
Err. ..no. because the former get done once a year ( the mechanic down the road pops by and I hand him the keys) and the other stuff is very intermittent.
On the other hand, the other day I was cleaning bits of food from under the tea table, after washing out the bath after someone else had used it and I thought to myself " noone ever, ever cleans up after me. And noone else even gives that fact a second thought."
So, even as I may begin to delegate the mowing and the shelf putting up to my DP (although no fucker touches my car) it won't mean that I am not expected BY DEFAULT to be the person who takes care of everyone else's needs.
Luckily I am not the self sacrificing sort and will be nipping it in the bud sharpish, but there it is.

Great to see this thread continuing. So much of the thread has focused on women as facilitators and not the men themselves. While

I really do we feel we should be calling out the facilitated men more - not like we need to 'NAME AND SHAME' but it's something they should be called out on.

It's so hard to do this in polite way though. When I've mentioned just jokingly to a few men that I work with, that they have an obvious advantage in life because they have someone at home doing the wifework and women around them supporting them, they look at me like I've slapped them. They're dumbfounded and don't get it but obviously think it's very rude to bring this up.

How DO we call out these men and get them to realize and appreciate the leg up they have and their privilege? Do we need a campaign? :) The problem is, as Brene Brown says, acknowledging privilege is shameful and men don't like shame.

Not only is it shameful, it's also against their interests windy - why would they want to lose out on their free servants? Why would they want to suddenly have to wash their own pants? It suits them just fine to continue to pretend they're fabulous by dint of their own massive balls.

And partly the reason those men looked like you slapped them is because you were essentially being a Naughty Child, pointing out something you shouldn't and Being Cheeky. You should know your womanly place and silently acknowledge their fabulousness, not get all uppity and imply they're not as fabulous as they think they are. Get back in your box.

It's very true. But fundamentally men live by the Great man theory don't they? That their success is theirs alone, that it's down to their greatness and that their achievements are solely due to the individual actions and decisions they've taken.

The male narrative is such and doesn't recognize the community or the impact of others. Their success is a solo venture - this is what we teach men from an early age, part of the narrative of masculinity.

Yup