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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

650 replies

OlennasWimple · 16/11/2017 00:13

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up Smile

OP posts:
LeCroissant · 17/11/2017 06:48

SteadyOn - I think there is a link there. The Tory 'big society' farce was about trying to get women to fulfil the role they used to be forced into - as unpaid facilitators of the entire society. When people talk about how disconnected we are and the lack of community what they're (partly) talking about is the fact that women are no longer available to fill in the gaps providing women's work that the government isn't willing to pay for - social care for the elderly, reliable emergency childcare etc etc. Women are supposed to happily keep society running with no money or recognition.

ISaySteadyOn · 17/11/2017 06:53

I suppose I don't have a problem with people keeping society running if that's what they want to do. It does need doing. But I do have a problem with the fact of a lack of free choice for everyone.

LeCroissant · 17/11/2017 06:56

In general it's not people keeping society running, it's women who are unpaid and considered 'lucky' because they 'don't work.' Because despite the fact that society can't run without them what they do is invisibl and worthless because it's women's work.

KERALA1 · 17/11/2017 07:06

So I am to blame for my dds becoming "breeding chattels" because I didn't want to return to my 60 hour a weekplus city corporate law job with international travel at the drop of a hat? Thanks for that.

Also this thread is missing an angle. Yes I missed out on a great "career" but I was miserable. Why is it assumed that carrying on unaffected by having kids is "better"?

I loved being around when the girls were little. The break gave me the space to set up my own business which I really enjoy and is much more suited to me and means I am around for the kids. I have hundreds of fab friends locally networks made because I am around. Meanwhile dh has had to slog on in my old job. He doesn't love it but he would bin it in a flash if we won the lottery. I don't see me as the hard done by one in fact the reverse is true.

TheGrumpySquirrel · 17/11/2017 07:21

It’s not necessarily better. The problem is the skew of women in one role and men in the other. The ideal would be normal for both parents to be able to work part time while the kids are very young. And a recognition that women have as much right to an independent life as men do.

The psychology of these roles are deeply entrenched - my dh hates his job and could easily quit to do a lower / unpaid interesting role or even stay at home given my earnings. He won’t. I don’t expect him to facilitate me, I expect us to share the load, and I support him in his career choices.. but if I were a man - I’d probably expect a lot more facilitation. If we have a baby, it won’t be “worth” him working for a good few years. But nobody expects a man to drop his career.

LeCroissant · 17/11/2017 07:27

Kerala, have you read the thread? The point of the entire thing is that of course there's absolutely nothing wrong with anybody staying at home with children if that is what they want to do. The issue is that too many women end up facilitating the success of men (who then believe they did it all themselves) while hating being at home and losing out on financial independence and security. The problem isn't with individual choices, it's with society as a whole.

slightlyglittermaned · 17/11/2017 07:28

Grumpy - the other thing is that even if someone takes time out, if that split is along traditional gender lines then everything is set up to prevent them going back to work in their own time at a similar level. It's the lack of good routes back that traps many women.

NefretForth · 17/11/2017 07:50

slightly, to be fair it's difficult for anyone to get back into the workplace after time out, as part of the general undervaluing of anything that isn't paid work. I don't know if there's been any work done on how easy it is for men to get back into work at a similar level after a break, as compared with women. DH was in IT before DD was born: I don't think there'd be any prospect of his getting back to where he was after 6 years away.

Iris65 · 17/11/2017 08:10

I was a facilitated wife for twenty years. My XH worked very hard running the house because mine was the higher paid, higher status job and I have some major health problems. Our sex life disappeared five years into the marriage and despite my best efforts we did not have sex for fifteen years. I couldn't accept this and left.

Then I met a man who I fell totally and deeply in love with. We were together for four years and during that time my XP told me that 'I rescued him from oblivion.' When I met him he was living in squalor in a tiny rented house, his washing machine did not work and, despite having a very well paid job and a large amount of money in the bank, bailiffs were regular visitors. This was as a result of his total inability to cope with daily life.

I moved in with him very soon after we met and I completely turned his life around. I still had my demanding job, while he, as an academic researcher spent most of his time sitting in his study doing exactly what he liked (He said he never worked for a moment because he loved his subject).

I did everything. And I mean everything. If I asked him to do something he needed reminding and supervising. He would often leave chores until 'he felt like it.' and this led to me doing them, as his tolerance for a sink full of dirty washing up was much higher than mine. I organised everything and showed him how to set up direct debits and standing orders so that bills were always paid.

We discussed buying a house between us and I found a beautiful, largish, Victorian mid terrace in an area we both loved. I organised the purchase, made the phone calls and the only thing he had to do was to occasionally speak on the phone, which I handed to him because he never answered his phone unless it was me calling. I organised and paid for the removals, did all of the packing and all of the changing of addresses, compared and chose the utilities and all he had to do was to turn up at the new house after we had moved. We chose furnishings together and very soon the house was beautiful and exactly as we both wanted.

During the house purchase it became clear that my job was under threat and my XP suggested that I keep my capital and redundancy payment, while he buy the house outright in his name. He told me that I wasn't to worry as he earned enough for both of us and we would be fine. I embraced the role of SAHP and decided to focus on him and his career, which he actively encouraged.

We moved in June and in October, one month after my redundancy completed and in the same week that my Dad died, he told me to leave and gave me two days to get out. The trigger was my attempt to have a conversation about money. At that point I had no income at all and suggested that we needed to re-organise the household costs as I was paying £500pcm (I did all the shopping and paid for our car) and he was paying £200 from a very high monthly salary.

In the aftermath, while I was searching for somewhere to live - my capital was nowhere enough to buy anywhere, I was jobless and discovering that its almost impossible to rent if you aren't working - he told me that he hadn't 'let me' buy half of the house because he wanted to be able to 'kick me out' when he wanted to.

When I left he hired a cleaner and a gardener. He now lives in a lovely house, which he owns, and has his life set up exactly as he wanted. I am struggling to set my own business while battling depression, anxiety and other health issues, and am renting a shared house with a friend.

My XP still owes me £10k as he wanted to have some savings left after the house purchase and promised that he would pay me back. I will never see that money again. I did everything for him and ended up with nothing.

There is no one else. My XP has Aspergers and I was the only person that he ever spoke to. We spent 24/7 together and he had been alone for six years, with only a very brief relationship in the previous eight years. I doubt that there are many women who would have taken him on because his Aspergers means that he is very rigid and socially awkward. I could see past all of that because of my background and I was completely blinded by what I thought was our mutual, intense love for one another. I also think that he is quite happy living in his bubble.

I feel like the SAHW who supported her husband for decades, only to find herself discarded in middle age: older, exhausted and fighting a sense of injustice; knowing that she knew better and feeling like an idiot because she loved and trusted her now ex DP.

cheminotte · 17/11/2017 08:23

Flowers Iris

BitOutOfPractice · 17/11/2017 09:08

Kerala please read the thraed. Both if you have time. It is absolutely not about denegrating SAHMs (or SAHPs of any kind). In fact, I'd say it's quite the opposite. It's about recognising how vital all the unpaid work that women (working inside and outside the home) is contributing to the career success of (mainly) men.

Sorry about all the brackets! Blush

HandbagKrabby · 17/11/2017 09:17

I’ve been sah for 3 months and it’s hard. I totally agree with everyone else needing to go to school/ work and I just want to do things (except for the things I have to do so everyone else gets on). It feels so unlike me and it’s very hard to put my wants first (though my family would never stop me).

I wonder if this is why jobs that facilitate are paid so poorly? Why pay anyone at all when you could have got a housewife to do it for free before the 70s?

It is like winning the lottery if you have a very rich man you’ve facilitated who pays up whether you stay together or not. It’s definitely a gamble as most men aren’t rich and many marriages end in divorce.

Iris I’m so sorry what a shit thing to happen. Reading that it to me reads like a crime, like a confidence trick. Absolute fucker.

RagingFemininist · 17/11/2017 09:38

I have a good friend of mine who told me several years ago when she separated that it wouod be impossible for someone with good education to stay married.
She went to show how every women around her who had gone to higher education (think PhD very good unis etc...) had all ended up divorced.
Her point was that those women had the financial independance to tell men to f** off when they weren’t pulling their weight. And that they are also the ones who were now refusing to take on all the mental and physical load of running the family.

I didn’t listen at the time.
I still think she is a bit too extreme in her views (I dint think it has anything to do with education as such for example) BUT I’m actually realising that what has killed my marriage is exactely that. That all the grief I have with H is linked with that, the refusal to respect me as a person who is worth just as much as him.

they have things they have to do and you just have things you want to do
Oh YY!! H is very good at doing his things for work (such as deciding to take in a position that meant lots of travel wo taking about it with me first) or his hobbies (he has to go to xxx for the day etc...). Whilst whatever I asking him to do is relegated to the bin because it’s clearky nit as important.
And sometimes it might just be about what to do on a Sunday (what he wants vs what I would like to do). But these little things matter too.

RagingFemininist · 17/11/2017 09:59

I think there is also the issue that men have actually started to want it all and it’s backfiring

So before, men were working, women were facilitators but SAHM. Men had the responsibility to provide for that woman (incl in case of civorce etc...)
Now women are expected to work and stand in their own two feet. If a man decides to leave a marriage —because he has found a new model—, then the woman si expected to find a job etc etc and to NOT be reliant at all on her exH (eg no spousal maintenance). Women are expected to have their own income (even when married or they receive and ‘allowance’). In effect they are wanting they cake (facilitated by women) and eat it (bit none of the responsibility)
Of course, now that they have removed whatever was the benefit from being that facilitator (aka women were benefitting form the good careers from Their H as well as having support if they, eg, got divorced), women are, unsurprinsgly not willing to still hold their side of the bargain (be the facilitator).
Cue for for Discontent form the men because they suddenly realise that they now have to do some of the HW, mental work etc etc....
And I believe they are resisting that (usually by being convinced they do a lot in the house because they’ve pushed the hoover once in the month) because it means taking some responsibility that they dont want.

woman11017 · 17/11/2017 10:40

Good posts, there RagingFeminist ^ and mostly everyone else! Smile
It's systemic and strategic.

Un unionised paid work, as most is in this country, involves worsening conditions of service and unpredictable hours.

In order for a wage earner with kids to do so, they often need a serf/ facilitator at home. Usually a gendered 'choice'.

'Facilator' work is un recognised financially, although it has been quantified in some divorce cases. I have a feeling that that is about to be reversed.

Women's paid work is systematically underpaid.

Women's legal rights to egality have been stripped on this island.

Compare and contrast with Olenna's post up thread in which her parents shared 'wifework'. The 1970s had laws, unions and a moral imperative which gathered pace for more equality for women inside and outside the home. It's no accident that there's been a cultural and legal shift back to the 1950s,(or 1850s) but they forgot to factor in our education, as you say, RagingFeminist

And we are where we is.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 17/11/2017 10:49

In general it's not people keeping society running, it's women who are unpaid and considered 'lucky' because they 'don't work.' Because despite the fact that society can't run without them what they do is invisibl and worthless because it's women's work

Yes LeCroissant totally agree. Also, as a boiled frog SAHM myself I really don't feel anyone has not acknowledged that some women choose to care for their kids rather than go out to work- it's about choices that women have and the risks associated with those choices. Several posters have shared very disturbing stories of how they've ended up seriously financially compromised after being a SAHM and their marriage ending. As RagingFeminist says actually part of the problem is that now, being the SAHM arguably has less advantages than it used to..

When I was an expat SAHM I had a much better time in a culture where homemaking was valued and respected, I felt like a valuable person, and because DH's salary was expected to provide for someone working in the home too we didn't have so many financial worries. In the UK i feel completely worthless as a SAHM, huge pressure to be at work but because I've had a career gap (or just because pay is crap in the uk/ austerity ) the jobs I've been offered so far are a full 10k than my earnings 6 years ago, and given the costs if I accepted a job I'd be running myself into the ground and I believe risking my health and sanity for about £200 a month.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 17/11/2017 10:51

10k less than....missed out quite an important word there. Multitasking with breastfeeding!

LeCroissant · 17/11/2017 10:58

'If I accepted a job I'd be running myself into the ground and I believe risking my health and sanity for about £200 a month'

This is the very stark choice a lot of women are faced with. What should happen of course is that you and your DH accept that, in order to get back into the workplace (something necessary for your long term security/satisfaction) some sacrifices have to be made, by him as well as you. So you share the burden of getting you back on track and you don't end up mentally and physically burnt out. But what usually happens is that the woman has to get herself back on track on her own, with no help or facilitation at all.

JustWonderingZ · 17/11/2017 11:02

RagingFeminist

I still think she is a bit too extreme in her views (I dint think it has anything to do with education as such for example) BUT I’m actually realising that what has killed my marriage is exactely that. That all the grief I have with H is linked with that, the refusal to respect me as a person who is worth just as much as him.

I always thought I will never marry growing up. I was a rebel and didn’t see myself in a subservient role, a maid, cleaner and cook to anyone. Ha... here I am, exactly where I did not think I would be.

The reason why I got married and have stayed married is my H has always given me space and never treated me like somebody beneath him. He encourages me to have my own time, i.e. go to the gym when he gets home in the evening, he will bathe the kids and put them to bed. He doesn’t expect me to spend my day cleaning, and if the washing up isn’t done, nothing is said. He asks for my advice and listens to it.

But even with that, SAH is difficult. I still do a huge amount of facilitating. If the OH appreciates it, it makes it a bit more bearable, I reckon....Not ideal, though.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 17/11/2017 11:04

I've been reading recently about the Icelandic womens' day off. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Icelandic_women%27s_strike and www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34602822
Wouldn't it be great if we could organise this for all the facilitation work women do? If we just all agreed to stop doing it all for a day - I wonder how many kids would get to school with the right clothes /pe kits / books or at all. How many men would have to look after their kids.
The idea of swanning off for a day and attending a woman's rally is amazing!

It would be important for women in "care" jobs to strike too, as it seems to me these are badly paid largely because they're seen as women's work.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 17/11/2017 11:11

Justwondering if my husband was like yours I'd be a lot happier He doesn’t expect me to spend my day cleaning, and if the washing up isn’t done, nothing is said
My DH often comments on what a dump the house is, why is there so much washing up but rarely picks up after himself. He claims it's not directed at me, but I feel it is. I'm trying to remember to say "yes, I agree, the house is messy, what are we as a team going to do about it?". He does ask for and listen to my advice though.

QuentinSummers · 17/11/2017 11:12

The Tory 'big society' farce was about trying to get women to fulfil the role they used to be forced into - as unpaid facilitators of the entire society.
Yes - and they are still trying with their social care proposal (aka women give up work and look after your parents with care needs in return for a share of their estate) and their politicians giving interviews about how "selfish" society aka women have become.
Fuck off Tories and reap what you sow - this was entirely foreseeable if women's caring/domestic contributions were valued in the first place. Huh

LeCroissant · 17/11/2017 11:13

If he comments, you could 'yes there is a lot of washing up, why don't you get on and do it?'

I think commenting on the state of the house isn't on unless he's actually going to do something about it and the claim that it isn't directed at you is gaslighting.

LeCroissant · 17/11/2017 11:15

Sorry my comment was to Ineed. It should you 'you could say'

LeCroissant · 17/11/2017 11:16

Men are always very quick to point out how bad things are - how bad the divorce rate is, how kids are failing, how 'selfish' society is - but any suggestion that they might have to inconvenience themselves in any way to improve that is met with incredulity. Them? Do something? Surely not!

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