Does reaching peak trans really mean anti ^all^ trans?

[Goatgirly]

A few months ago I reached peak trans, because of the way trans activists behave to women, because children are encouraged to make decisions that no-one of their age is capable of making, because trans women with fully working male genitals should not have access to anywhere that is solely for women, whether that place is a changing room, ladies' loos, women's prison or wherever.

I've been informed that I am a terf, but this is mainly because I am against the extreme stance that some trans women have taken.

On the whole I have no issue with trans people at all, it wasn't even on my radar until fairly recently, when I stumbled apon Twitter and found ridiculous trans ideological posts, that biology is is a social construct and gender and stereotypes rule. I then found out about die cis scum, the cotton ceiling, and other delightful things that prove to me that certain trans women are just mysoginistic men and identifying as a woman hasn't changed that.

But at the same time, I still don't have a problem with most (assuming it's most?) trans people, although having read the Janice Turner article in the times the other day, I feel bad that young lesbians can't be who they are and wear what they want to wear without feeling they would be better off being men.

So, am I just confusing the issue? Is it possible to reach peak trans yet not really have a problem with trans people? Can I hold these views when my deep down opinion is that individuals can wear what they want, call themselves what they like, look how they want, do what they need to be happy, but they will still be the born sex that they are in every cell of their body, even if they have removed certain parts of that body, because that's how biology works?
I guess I'm just confused about how I feel at the whole thing.

I support trans people’s right to non-discrimination and safety. However, I do not believe in ladybrain and the trans-narrative that throws gender nonconformist children under the bus and gives predatory men a pass to get into women’s safe places.

From what I have read, young people generally are feeling more suicidal than in the past. Particularly minorities, like LGBT and disabled kids.

But in terms of actual suicide, there are no lists. I have zero doubt that they would be on every UK trans-website.

Randomly allocating young trans people to medical transition or no medical transition would be literally horrifying 😱 so I suppose the best evidence would be from naturalistic prospective outcome studies. I don't know if anyone is looking at this.

datun in theory, if you took any group of young people subscribing to a particular identity and convinced them that suicidality was an intrinsic aspect of that identity you would expect to see an increase in suicidality in that group. It's very contagious, hence the reporting guidelines.

Datun I found those images, but I can't find any evidence, NHS or otherwise, to back it up.
Rates of self harm and suicide/suicide ideation are high, but not as high as the figures shown in those images.

I've also seen figures of 85-90% of gender dysphoric teens coming round to accepting their born sex, but can't find anything official to back this up?

I don't trust the numbers we're given and I'm not convinced they apply to the population we're discussing anyway.

But I do think that if you're unhappy enough with who you are to want to be someone else, that might also be associated with not wanting to exist at all. And if you hate your body enough to contemplate cutting bits of it off that might be associated with thoughts of other methods of self-harm. And if you're told you are - or should be - suicidal by irresponsible transactivists that adds a risk of social contagion. And if you go through with transition and it doesn't solve your problems then where does that leave you?

I think the suicidality thing is probably true, to at least some extent. I don't accept that state-sanctioned self-harm is the self-evident solution. We don't offer surgery as a first-line treatment to any other suicidal group , and I can't find any actual evidence that it's been shown to be effective in the trans population

Goatgirly

It’s incredibly difficult to find the figures, because they are always just self-reported surveys. And some seem to contradict others.

The 80% desistence rate I believe was originally mentioned by Zucker. It’s a long time since I read all his stuff, but he might be worth a Google.

Be aware that he has been relentlessly targeted by trans-activists and that might come up in your search.

I agree that transactivists using suicide as leverage goes directly against Samaritans guidelines, because of the contagion phenomenon.

To me, the part that doesn’t sit right is that suicide ideation does not translate into completed suicide.

So, once again, you are only left with what people say about themselves. And since many of the surveys are sent to people who are vulnerable anyway and are self selecting, they don’t present a representative viewpoint. I’m not a statistician, but I believe, that is something that that they would question.

As far as I’m aware, the original survey did not verify what the people said. And even the authors thought that thoughts of suicide could include self harming.

The truth is, we are not seeing trans teenagers regularly killing themselves in the uk.

I frequently Google, but can’t find any.

And I don’t think it’s the sort of thing that transactivists would keep under their hat.

This is a link to Transgendertrends’ analysis of suicide reports by Stonewall and others.

You have to wade through how they are trying to unravel the figures.

But the points they raise are significant. For instance, you can’t tell from the Stonewall figures who is a boy who is a girl. Because of how they identify (utterley irresponsible).

Girls who are lesbian, have been made invisible.

The survey doesn’t record whether these children are medically transitioned or not. Which would be a huge thing, wouldn’t it? If you’ve got thoughts of suicide before you transition and after, then what’s the point?

Either way, like everything else, it doesn’t look to me as though Stonewall are the slightest bit interested in the welfare of children, rather than pushing an agenda.

www.transgendertrend.com/?s=Teen+suicide+&submit=Search

I have a question - reporting guidelines for the media re suicides are quite strong, here on MN suicide threads are taken down, but where do we (society/media/social media) stand on the threats of third party suicide we see from transactivists (the "if you don't let your DC transition, they will kill themselves" type stuff)? Is that considered in the same way as first party threats/discussion? Should we be reporting stuff here on MN, and complaining about other places not removing?

If the reporting restrictions are there to minimise the social contagion aspect, should we not also be looking at the "expectation" that a GNC/trans/confused/whatever teenager should have this in the arsenal of "testing the boundaries" that all (some/most?) teens go through? And not making it the "obvious" next step on from "my life is so shit", cutting out slamming doors and sulking in your room for two weeks?

I suppose what I'm saying, in a very long winded way, is that are the people claiming that a not-yet-transed GNC teen is a suicide risk, not making that risk bigger? And if so, why is nothing being done about it?

I’ll treat each transperson who i come across as i find them. I have issues with the narcissist crazy demands from some transactivists.

I’m beginning to think all the hoohaar crazy shit is nothing to do with the older “AGP” TW/TS but just a bunch of rebelling gobby students on a power trip to shake up the system, social norms etc - to break down all old norms and barriers that evil, stupid old folk cling to

I have no issue at all with transexual, transvestite, transgender or gender non conforming individuals. I think it is sad that someone with a penis might feel the need to declare themselves female due to their sexual desires, hobbies or personality type. I am furious that teenage boys are being made (allowed?) to question their biology and contemplate major life changing meds or surgery, sometimes seemingly because they like make up or am-dram. I have sympathy with teenage girls who wish to self-identify as male - who the fuck would choose to be a woman at the moment? A lifetime of lower pay, sexual harrassment, plus you get to bleed from your vagina for one week out of four?!

I feel gender is a social construct. Sex is a biological fact. It is determined at birth because it is a fact. You cannot "be aassigned" male or female any more than you are assigned human or assigned 8lb at birth. You just are.

I would like to see a world where what is between your legs doesn't matter on a day-to-day basis, but we all need to accept that there are some situations where it really, really does matter. Rape crisis centres, prisons and competitive sports remaining sex-segregated would be the absolute priority for me

Disagreeing with whatever Stonewall says about trans is allegedly the very epitome of transphobia.

A few months ago I reached peak trans, because of the way trans activists behave to women...

Imagine someone saying "I peak-homosexualed because of the way homosexual activists treat heterosexuals". Yet if you look at the specific incidents then 99% of the time there will be some anti-homosexual context going on. Whether that is because that specific heterosexual was being homophobic, calling homosexuals perverts or mentally ill, saying that homosexual marriages are not real marriages, arguing for why gays should not be allowed to get married or adopt children, etc etc. So in otherwords these activists are not particularly attacking heterosexuals.

I could appreciate the rhetorical reasons some on that side of the fence would have for portraying the situation as if homosexual activists are just attacking random heterosexuals simply for being heterosexual - it does rather help demonise them, which helps bolster your own side.

But from your post it does not come across if this is a deliberate tactic, as it surely is in many cases (and a very clever one at that). You seem to care about such things as not misrepresenting people, tarring all with the same brush etc etc. So just pointing out that you might have had an inadvertent misrepresentation there.

I reached peakJabab a long long time ago.

JAPAB

In the last 10 minutes!

A woman has started a thread to say a transactivist has contacted her work and accused her of transphobia for not wanting to be addressed as cis.

Although he didn’t say that. He assumed that because she did not want to be addressed as cis, she might, at some imaginary point in the future, misgender him. (Despite not knowing who he is.)

Another thread started in the last few minutes has a male weightlifter sweeping the boards in New Zealand and beating women hands down.

A few days ago a woman’s officer was ousted from her position in the Labour Party because she was gender critical. The person who ousted her took up a post of women’s officer. He is a 19-year-old boy. Biologically and, more to the point, legally male.

Do you seriously think that intelligent, educated, informed women, particularly feminists who go out of their way to champion minorities would be opposed to transgenderism for no reason?

These are just three incidents, two the last few minutes, and one a few days ago.

I could give you hundreds more.

This is a direct attack on women.

"she might, at some imaginary point in the future, misgender him"

Sounds very similar to an old convo between posie and mn...

Why do you spend so much time focusing on the extremists who do not represent the general Trans population? You search out stories and tweets, get riled up and spread their mandate, making other people riled up and anti-trans because of a bunch of people who should never be given airtime.

Be careful how much you become part of the problem and remember that every word that comes out of your mouth that is negative about trans people needs to be clearly labelled as NOT about trans people. It's about extremists.

ZigZagandDustin

So there are bunch of people who are identifying as women, attacking women everywhere. Both personally and professionally.

How do we know they are extremists?

The transwoman weightlifter in New Zealand. The person is not political. They are a sportswoman.

Are you saying that every single transwomen who takes the place of a woman, competes in female sport, or insists on using facilities designed for women, is an extremist?

ZigZagandDustin
Thats a poor response to Datuns post.

Why do you spend so much time focusing on the extremists who do not represent the general Trans population?

Except they must do - because they're getting laws discussed in parliament, affecting national health policy, being womens officers at universities and in political parties - if that's not representing the general trans population, then I don't know what is - isn't representing your constituents exactly the point of being in one of those positions?

Fizzy, exactly.

Pooley - you say Stonewall confused themselves but that is now the working definition of transgender and that is why the GRA worries us.

As for peak trans, I don't have an issue with transsexuals. I'm afraid if the GRA suggestions are representative of transgender then yes, I do have a problem with that. Men should not be allowed in women's safe spaces.

Over the past 30 years, I have known quite a few people who were (generally) male in the week and 'female' at the weekends - and who got some sexual pleasure from 'crossdressing'. Most of them were really nice people. It's possible to have a sexual fetish and not be a vicious, attention-seeking woman-hater, as well.
I also think that some of the 'trans rights' lot are motivated less by a sinister, considered misogyny than just messed up, unhappy, volatile etc. Until recently, being gender non-conforming in any way could still get you beaten up in the street, persistently bullied at school, disowned by your parents etc, unless you were really good at hiding it. I think it was Paris Lees who first came up with the line 'Hurt people hurt people ' (it's not an instruction: it means that people who have been hurt may lash out at others.)
But, yeah, a percentage of them are just thoroughgoing misogynists, and a percentage of 'trans allies' are leftwing men who are absolutely thrilled to have another opportunity to call women cunts and threaten to beat them up.

This was posted elsewhere on MumsNet. It's a page from the NHS Gender Identity Development Service and does not support the high suicide rate story. gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

Reanimated " Until recently, being gender non-conforming in any way could still get you beaten up in the street"

Just one example but if you are thinking of a boy in a dress, then that boy calling himself a transgender female won't change his risk at school or or on the street.

If he wants to wear a dress at work, yes, the very complex trans thing might help him get round that. But those issues could have been approached by using sex discrimination legislation.