Does reaching peak trans really mean anti ^all^ trans?

[Goatgirly]

A few months ago I reached peak trans, because of the way trans activists behave to women, because children are encouraged to make decisions that no-one of their age is capable of making, because trans women with fully working male genitals should not have access to anywhere that is solely for women, whether that place is a changing room, ladies' loos, women's prison or wherever.

I've been informed that I am a terf, but this is mainly because I am against the extreme stance that some trans women have taken.

On the whole I have no issue with trans people at all, it wasn't even on my radar until fairly recently, when I stumbled apon Twitter and found ridiculous trans ideological posts, that biology is is a social construct and gender and stereotypes rule. I then found out about die cis scum, the cotton ceiling, and other delightful things that prove to me that certain trans women are just mysoginistic men and identifying as a woman hasn't changed that.

But at the same time, I still don't have a problem with most (assuming it's most?) trans people, although having read the Janice Turner article in the times the other day, I feel bad that young lesbians can't be who they are and wear what they want to wear without feeling they would be better off being men.

So, am I just confusing the issue? Is it possible to reach peak trans yet not really have a problem with trans people? Can I hold these views when my deep down opinion is that individuals can wear what they want, call themselves what they like, look how they want, do what they need to be happy, but they will still be the born sex that they are in every cell of their body, even if they have removed certain parts of that body, because that's how biology works?
I guess I'm just confused about how I feel at the whole thing.

I thought the majority of transwomen still had working male parts? Have I got that wrong?

Hackmum, I agree (although it's earlyish and I'm still a bit blurry!) some people should transition and are better for doing so.

hackmum

I agree with that. Whether you call it a mental illness or not, obviously some people are far happier presenting as the opposite sex, whilst knowing full well that they are their natal sex.

They’re not political and they’re not demanding rights that don’t apply to them.

Unfortunately, it’s become political, and I believe it’s because you now have a new breed of trans people who are sexually motivated (AGP) and have a very different agenda indeed.

But since it’s impossible to make a distinction, the former group is being disadvantaged by the latter.

Where the whole born in the wrong body thing unravels for me is that there are other minorities of people who feel their bodies are wrong , those who want limbs removed or to be paralysed or blinded.

I also read an article where dementia patients who fully transitioned years ago are becoming distressed at their bodies being 'wrong', that would pour cold water on any notion of 'trans since birth', no?

How would those people be treated Bela? Surely they wouldn't go along with it and lop off a perfectly healthy limb?

Thinking about the rise in teenagers, particularly girls, aren't the teen years rife with odd feelings and navel gazing anyway (I know my teen years were), surely an element of "this will pass" would be far healthier than accommodating teen angst? The girls I knew at school who went through these kinds of feelings all grew out of it by the time they left school. How awful if they'd been supported to transition.

And another thing that I can't get my head around. The fried who informed me that I am non binary is quite a force of nature, fully buys into men can be women of they want and stops any questioning as transphobia, yet at the same time she is passionate about stopping gender stereotypes, surely trans is the ultimate in gender stereotypes, so how can someone be so immersed in both of these things when we can see that the stereotypes give rise to children being assumed to be in the wrong body

Personally I don't see clothing and other material items as having genders because they don't have male or female characteristics so I think a man could/should wear skirts and not feel transgender or be on the trans spectrum just like a woman can wear jeans and be a woman.
I think gender equality needs to be equalled so people don't become confused and see that being transgender starts in the mind of the person who to some extent has started to transition to the opposite gender thus changing body parts is some but not all of the transitioning process, clothing and materials etching shouldn't have nothing to do with it so I think stonewall maybe confused themselves.

What about this then? Fucking #peak-rocket trans

purplesagefem.wordpress.com/2016/04/15/white-man-who-identifies-as-a-hindu-woman-is-a-university-womens-centre-coordinator/

The fried who informed me that I am non binary is quite a force of nature, fully buys into men can be women of they want and stops any questioning as transphobia, yet at the same time she is passionate about stopping gender stereotypes

Yes, it's so contradictory, isn't it? And so frustrating that they just can't see that basically everybody could be described as non-binary, and that wearing clothes traditionally associated with the opposite sex is only breaking down gender stereotypes when you are not labelling it as being different!

Insisting that a man who wants to wear a dress is obviously a woman and therefore has something physically wrong with his body is such a strict imposition of gender stereotypes that it's not only extremely regressive, but incredibly harmful. I really can't understand why they cannot see this.

OMG AssignedPerfectAtBirth - a white man who identifies as a 'tranny cyborg Hindu woman with a penis' working at a University women's centre WTAF? Is there anything else he can appropriate whilst he's at it? He's taking the piss, surely?

There's a great line in one of the comments that I'm going to remember for future use though: I feel like a woman when I’m expected to roll over and take it….

Blanche
I know, just when you think it couldn't get any more bizarre. But people will accept this - I could weep.

Like that quote!

Tranny cyborg Hindu woman...... well if that's valid, then identifying as a Klingon, a Jedi Elephant or a Middle Earth Elf has to be equally valid. There is a point at which all this self indulgence has to be challenged and not pandered to. Call yourself what you want, dress how you want, do whatever you want to express yourself, but when legalities are being framed that compel others to play along with someone else's feelings and fantasies then the common sense alarm should be ringing loudly.

I'm not anti trans. I fully support the right of people to dress, name themselves and live in whatever expression of gender they feel drawn to, as I don't believe in gender stereotypes. Which means feminine males, great, masculine females, great, but tell me you're a cyborg elf and I'm going to go find someone who's mentally grown above 13 to talk to.

I'm anti the anti-science notion that biological sex is not a fixed fact, that women can have penises, that some men have vaginas and give birth. No, I don't agree with that. You might as well ask me to believe the earth is flat.

I am very anti homophobia, in particular that lesbian and gay are outdated, rigid and weird, and lesbians in particular should get over themselves and have sex with men because thinking they're sexually attracted to female bodies is morally wrong. WTAF. This is abusive gaslighting.

I am very anti permanently damaging a child's fertility and body before they're old enough to have the faintest idea of what they're giving up. I am very anti adults giving children untested drugs and hormones with no idea at all of what effect it may have long term. I am very anti professionals being allowed to discuss or unpack a child's feelings or offer therapy to meet actual individual need first because doing so invalidates the feelings of adults who ought to be emotionally competent enough to put the child first.

I am very anti the limiting and taking away of women's rights to safe spaces, autonomy, free speech, naming and owning their biology, and to be able to have access to women only spaces and women only medical professionals when in vulnerable situations. And by women I mean biological women.

I have always been very much live and let live, but the current trans ideology is actively conflicting and reducing the rights and wellbeing of other groups and I will support those groups to hold their boundaries.

When it comes to transing teenagers, my take on it is that being a teenager is shit, and deciding you must be the opposite sex is probably a good explanation for not feeling quite right (I'm explaining this badly!), but I then have suicide rates thrown at me, very high levels of suicides amongst trans teens, is this right? I've googled, but the statistics seem to be quoted in sources such as Mermaids, Pink News, places I don't wholly trust.

*professionals NOT being allowed, obviously

Goatgirly - you are right to be sceptical about the tran suicide rate stats.

Mermaids etc quote it as 48% out of a sample of 2000, but omit to include that the trans population in the sample was only 27 people....

27 self selected trans people

27 self selected trans people

... who were all still alive. And whose accounts were not verified.

I agree with people on this thread and I think Datun summed it up well (as usual)

You have to separate the personal from the political. It’s not about individuals. It’s about an ideology that damages women.

Peak trans for me is not about actual individual trans people, it is especially not about transitioned people who are just getting on with life, the reality is that I am not all hysterical about toilets etc. I would willingly fight against discrimination and cruelty towards trans people. But, I object to the magical thinking, the double think and redefining of language as straightforward as 'woman'. I believe firmly (and always have) gender is a social construct to be challenged and identity is not bound up in gender stereotypes. I believe women have fought long and hard to have their own protected spaces (e.g. women's refuges) and those should not be taken away from them on whimsy. I think women should be able to play competitive sports and excel at them - women's sports have fought long and hard to get some recognition and still suffer from being underfunded, it isn't right that female bodied sportswomen are edged out by male bodied competitors. Women should be safe in prisons from predators and children should be safe from being fed harmful ideologies and medicines. I do NOT hate trans people, I am naturally for the underdog and abhor nastiness and cruelty but I feel women are being thrown under the bus here with the GRC and I think that Trans activism is very far from the powerless little minority group it like to paint itself as.

Individuals would (within reason) receive every courtesy of correct pronoun use (although I do object to the 'Sheila only on Saturdays' style of shifting pronouns) and every kindness. As a group, however, I cannot tolerate the trampling of women's hard-won rights.

@AssignedPerfectAtBirth

HolyFreakinGuacamole that link just peaked me into the stratosphere.

goat
I think you’re right.
When I was young teenager I didn’t think I was ‘like the other girls’ I idolised a male celebrity who I did not fancy at all but instead wanted to be, I dressed exactly like him but I was horrified that my female body did not look the same in the clothes so starved myself to try and get rid of my breasts and hips.
I was also convinced I was the reincarnation of another male celebrity, like utterly convinced.
The idea that I could be trans never came up because it just wasn’t an option but I do wonder if I’d have taken it if I was young now.

It's like climbing the Himalayas - every time you think you reach the peak you discover there's another mahoosive mountain in front of you that's even higher!

Wow assigned

That link. This from one of the commenters:

I clicked around a bit and discovered this charming stand-up comedy routine where he claims to be “asexual” and then spends the rest of the skit talking about how much porn he watches and tells the story of when he gave anal sex to someone who continuously said “ow.”

This isn’t just about peak trans. There’s a reason why you can peak and then peak again, over and over.

Because every aggressive men’s rights activist, predator, paedophile, chancer and nutter are now all calling themselves trans.

Why not? Since there is no criteria, and all it does is bring you a whole load of privilege.

In any other time, these people would have been considered dangerous and either treated or ignored. But now they’re being feted and enabled.

I honestly don’t understand how people can be quite so stupid.

The mixture of stupidity misogyny is always worse than anything else.

Peak trans for me hasn't made me anti-trans, but it has opened my eyes to a lot of questionable behaviour from some transwomen in the same way that learning more about feminism made me more aware of misogyny.

In particular, a colleague is trans and since learning about AGP I've started to view their choice of clothes and their OTT gestures as a form of womanface. I'm angrier about their lack of personal space which I view as crossing boundaries. I don't think I was ever comfortable with this fully, but beforehand I was better at suppressing it and trying to pretend it wasn't happening - now it feels like gaslighting.

With respect to the claims that young trans people are at heightened risk of suicidal ideation and behaviour, these may well be accurate. If this is the case it raises a lot of very important questions which might be quite hard to answer atm. e.g.:

Is increased suicidality associated with being gnc or with being trans or both?

Does pressure to transition decrease or increase it? Does social transition decrease or increase it? Does medical transition decrease or increase it? Relative to what (no intervention / homophobic bullying / social support / psychological therapy?) Are short-term outcomes in this respect the same or different from long-term outcomes?

What is the impact of the public message that is being given to young trans people that suicidal ideation and behaviour is a) normal, perhaps inevitable for people like them and b) a possible solution to their distress?

I've been trying to find official statistics, which do agree that trans teens are at higher risk, but I've also found info on autistic teens being at higher risk too. Having read about a link between autism and gender dysphoria this could tie in.

Sources with a trans agenda seem to be spouting facts that I can't find, but equally, sources with more of a balanced/verging in anti trans stance are stating figures that I also can't find, so both "sides" are proving difficult to agree with.

Whatever though, there doesn't seem to be any sort of peer reviewed research to confirm that the early medical intervention works, so transing children are being treated as an experiment? If there are peer reviewed papers stating anything about trans I'd be interested to see them.

It reminds me of young earth creationists. Convincing (yet bonkers) arguments for every little query, but impossible to discuss the matter in depth at all.

Whatwould, what is gnc?

Goatgirly Gender non-conforming

I am aware of peer reviewed papers on this (try a google scholar search) although I haven't read any of them properly. From a quick glance, they don't really address this new population of very young gnc / gender fluid / trans people though.