R4 Today programme have an item on later about children and gender dysphoria.

[Iris65]

Looking forward to hearing this.

I see that on the Reddit thread someone did actually refer to the scaffolding and seeding with someones own cells! Except, unless I have REALLY misunderstood, they seed it with cells from the womens own vulvas, so they have "autologous muscle and vaginal mucosal cells". Whereas males don't have the required cells to start with, not actually being female!

The thread was very sad and frankly just ignores all the issues with absent sexual function (it's okay, they won't mind they might actually just be asexual, rather than totally having lost any sexual function they might have had cos they were given puberty blockers etc), and all the issues with the surgical complications of trying to create neo-vaginas with grafts. No, it's just get the right doctor, and it will all be *fine. And you;'ll be able to get fucked properly (even if you've not actually got much sexual sensation to speak of at the end of it all!).

@Bucketsandspoons that aspect of the Reddit thread really jumped out at me too.

Asexuality is real and valid of course, but to say someone could be asexual, when their genitals have been stunted in their growth and they haven't been given the option to explore their sexuality for themselves?
that is an awful attitude to inflict on this young transwoman.

It reminds me of the historically lazy and damaging medical attitude towards (actual) intersex people.

Fair enough hipster - I know that's a problem. The trouble is a 15 year old is not listening to the Today programme, they are getting all their news from "people like them". Until "people like them" are talking to them about failed neo-vaginas and gay eugenics, then the problem persists.

I used to listen to it at 15, but accept that’s unusual

The situation has got out of hand in large part because, in an effort to embrace diversity, well meaning adults have been going along with it. Presumably, because a lot of the time it doesn’t directly affect them or their families so there hasn’t been a pressing need for facing the realities analytically and critically. In short, all the good feelz and none of the responsibility.

With any luck, a few adults will have thought a bit harder about the issues and be better placed to participate responsibly in the wider discussion.

So if a boy has puberty blockers, does that mean his penis will never grow???!! Because that's hell of a thing to decide at the age of around 10.

That is absolutely horrific - why are they pushing this? No sexual pleasure and to be honest who exactly are they going to appeal to? I can't see many straight men wanting such a girlfriend in all honesty.

JessicaEccles

So if a boy has puberty blockers, does that mean his penis will never grow???!!

Yeah. That’s the point. It stops puberty of their natal sex. And then when they have cross sex hormones, they will acquire secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex. So a boy will grow breasts and his fat distribution will change.

So Jazz Jennings, born male, looks like a girl (although not all the time, strangely), has breasts, but has the genitalia of a pubescent boy.

The cross sex hormones would have made him sterile. And the effects are irreversible.

People who defend this practice say that hormone blockers are reversible. Which in theory, they might be. So if you stop taking them, and didn’t ever take cross sex hormones, you might just develop normally.

However, 97% of children who start on hormone blockers, go onto cross sex hormones. So it’s a bit moot.

Transactivists say it’s because they are genuinely trans. Detractors say hormone blockers prevent the child from developing the kind of critical thought needed to analyse their situation. And once you have socially transitioned, it’s incredibly difficult to admit you are wrong.

Both sides agree that hormone blockers have not been tested for this particular issue, and therefore it’s incredibly difficult to tell exactly what sort of effect they have on a developing brain.

Jessica yes. I've often seen it said online that you just stop the blockers any time and a totally normal puberty then happens (it doesn't), or the cheerful 'well shove more hormones in them until it sorts itself out'.

Sexual development basically doesn't occur. So in Jazz Jennings' case, she has the genitalia of a pre pubescent boy, is not able to erect or orgasm, no real sexual drive of any kind, a very very limited dating pool. Jazz Jennings describes herself as 'pansexual' which sadly I think translates as since she has no physical sexual drive in any direction she is as open to envisaging sex with anyone, she has no reason or inner direction to guide any differently.

If she had not been given puberty blockers, the chances are high that she would have grown up to be a very feminine and pretty gay man which comes with a large dating pool.

cross post with Datun* who answered that way better!

If she had not been given puberty blockers, the chances are high that she would have grown up to be a very feminine and pretty gay man which comes with a large dating pool.

This is the absolute crying shame of the whole thing.

It’s bad enough going through what he’s been through, but to be under the public spotlight for the duration makes it so much worse.

And it’s gut churning that his plight is being sold as entertainment.

"So Jazz Jennings, born male, looks like a girl (although not all the time, strangely), has breasts, but has the genitalia of a pubescent boy.
"

Pre-pubescent. Penis growth typically occurs from 11.5 to 16.5 years and as response to testosterone produced in puberty. I think the increase in volume is something like 4x.

Obviously if you have a penis that is 1/4 of the size of an normal adult male penis, than it's not going to give you as much to work with!

It would seem that it should be impossible for a prepubescent child to consent to puberty blocking. Hormones make changes to brain and body, how are they supposed to know they don't want normal sexual function if they have never had one?

I doubt most small boys think 'oh yes I'd like to be a teenager so I can spend my time wanking'. It just wouldn't cross your mind.

pisacake

I never know whether to stay pubescent or prepubescent! Because as I understand it, puberty has to start before you can take the puberty blockers.

And I’m quite certain they’re not told they will not have normal sexual function. Or their parents aren’t. Jazz’s mum acted as though it’s come as a complete shock.

It would be horrendous if they were told beforehand, and still went ahead.

It's basically castration- not sex 'change'.

And as someone said upthread- who is going to sleep with them? Straight men won't want a woman with a penis or poorly constructed vagina. Gay men will want a man. Straight women will want a man, not a girl with a prosthesis. Lesbians want a woman.
It seems they will be prey for some deeply disturbed individuals with a fetish.

One observation made in the Reddit thread caught my eye. I Am Jazz is a constructed reality television programme and as such will use techniques to pull in the viewer including having reveals, shocks, conflicts, etc. So when you see Jazz suddenly hitting a terrible obstacle which will need time to process, and bravery to overcome, don't assume it's not been scripted and added to create drama.

Watching the clip made me wonder how young people like Jazz are going to deal with ageing, given they’ve already started down the path of setting themselves against biological realities.

hipsterfun I frequently see trans activists make ageist comments. They seem to see ageing and older people as 'other'.

I heard some of the R4 item (in a just-woke-up haze so not sure I caught everything). By the end of it I wanted the presenter to ask "But why are some people changing their bodies if it's about gender?". Surely someone changing their body is trans-sex (possibly in addition to trans-gender)?

xenophile Why so combative? My change of opinion is not an astounding volte face. So don't hang the bunting out just yet.

I am extremely cautious about how children who identify as gender dysphoric are treated. I think that there needs to be a much longer and conservative process before gender reassignment.

However, those who have completed gender reassignment and become a transwoman should then be recognised as such. What they have between their legs is their own business and in women's changing rooms they should use private cubicles. They have to suck it up buttercup. Just as I argued in another thread people should be protected from being confronted with gory, realistic Halloween costumes so they should be protected from seeing opposite sex genitals unless they choose to use unisex or nude beaches etc.

I think that there is a major problem with 'informal' self identification. There's a big difference between what some here have described as 'Today I feelz...' and those who have committed over a period of years and therapy to actually living as a woman.

This is so sad and infuriating that young people are being experimented on like this. The TAs talk about the stopping puberty so that the child can go through the "correct" puberty using cross-sex hormones. I don't think there are any studies of what this means other than on the superficial level of fat distribution / muscle / facial hair / voice.

What about the changes caused by puberty in maturing the brain? How is the brain maturity affected by puberty blockers followed by cross-sex hormones?

Also TAs effectively try to suppress any discussion about the impact on children's genitalia by claiming that anyone who raises it is obsessed with children's genitalia. This is a hard topic and it's difficult to say "boys will not develop a penis, will have limited or no sexual desire and will be sterile" or "girls will suffer from vaginal atrophy leading to health problems including urinary incontinence at a young age and will be sterile". I don't know whether girls who take puberty blockers have their sexual desire affected.

The surgery for trans identified males to create a neo-vagina have typically had success criteria of whether it can be successfully penetrated by a penis (because that's what a vagina is right? ) so I'm not sure if the sexual pleasure of the trans person (male or female) is of much concern. I read an article a while ago by a prominent MTT who said he had little sensation in his created vagina whereas all the MTTs in his support groups said they were having orgasms all over the place. He said on speaking to them privately, they pretty much all admitted they had no sensation but didn't want to be the one in the group saying so.

It's a hard topic to discuss but it is so shocking when you realise what is going on and what is being done to this children.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder

After reading the recent thread about the professor, I googled DIIP regret.

And the comparisons are so glaringly obvious that I can't decide whether the article was written by someone here!

This line, in particular, struck me, "The disorder is usually traeted as a psychological condition" (not a direct quote-I'm just typing/thinking aloud from memory, on the bus.)

FloraFox

Excellent points.

If man is AGP, surgery can be desirable as it is the ultimate goal, in as much as they can have sex ‘as a woman’. Despite them remaining attracted to women, a man is used as a sort of prop for them to feel as much like a woman as they can.

Do you remember Bruce Jenner, an obviously heterosexual man, saying he might have a relationship with a man now? That’s the fetish in action.

Actually experiencing sexual pleasure in the same way that a woman does, is obviously not possible, but neither might it be the actual goal.

There is an enormous amount of sex involved in all this. It’s driven by men, so it’s unsurprising.

I think the mistake is to think that men who want to be women are viewing sex in the same way that women do.

Several times I have read transwomen talking about it, and there is a central theme. Equating every single thing they think and feel to be the same as a natal woman. It’s less about what they’re actually feeling (i.e. the sensation) and more about telling each other that’s what real women feel all the time.

Chemical and surgical castration sounds a bit brutal tho. Let's call it "Gender realignment" instead - (as I heard someone refer to the process a teenager was going to go through ) - feels a lot better, doesn't it?
Part of the problem is that there is a sort of martyrdom around this, it's the price you pay for finding your authentic self. Like maybe joining an extreme religious organisation - the pain is part of the journey.

more about telling each other that’s what real women feel all the time.

So they think women feel nothing during sex, and it's just about penetrating a hole. That explains an awful lot.....