#MeToo is trans-exclusionary and for white, cis, privileged women

[AssignedPerfectAtBirth]

www.bustle.com/p/some-members-of-the-lgbtq-community-feel-excluded-by-the-me-too-hashtag-its-a-reminder-of-how-important-inclusive-language-is-2953162?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=owned&utm_campaign=feminismbustle

Now if this article doesn't persuade women of the utter self centredness of the transactivists, nothing will

www.them.us/story/how-metoo-stands-to-marginalize

Another one

Assigned

I can’t even read it all. What a bunch of narcissistic fuckers.

There is something truly nightmarish about a bunch of men oppressing women then upping the oppression by claiming to be oppressed. By those same women.

And at exactly the same time, those very same men claim to thoroughly enjoy objectification and being treated like pieces of meat.

George Orwell was a true visionary.

Gender-Nonconforming People

Fucks sake. Do these people really, truly believe that all of us over here are perfectly happy with our lot, that MeToo is just for those women in flowery dresses, heels, and makeup? If they do, they're the ones excluding themselves, not all the rest of us in our hoodies and DMs, tea-dresses and sandals.

They're being ridiculous. Being gender non-conforming didn't stop me or any other women I know being assaulted. We were assaulted because we were women, not because we were acting like women. And funnily enough, I don't feel excluded by MeToo, despite sitting here in boxers jeans and t-shirt (very similar to what my male partner is also wearing), because MeToo is about Sex. About being a woman or a girl, not about Gender at all.

Datun

And at exactly the same time, those very same men claim to thoroughly enjoy objectification and being treated like pieces of meat.

You said something similar up thread right at the start. Have you anything that I can read on this?

Not doubting you btw, but am reading as much as I can despite reaching peak trans some time ago.

Sorry - that 1st paragraph should be in bold as it's quoting you.

www.vice.com/en_dk/article/zn7b79/enjoying-catcalls-paris-lees-column

That's the first one that springs to mind - Laverne Cox said something similar at some point.

If you go onto the redis boards and read, there's plenty there too - it's often not very pleasant though.

CisMyArse

As spook says Lees is the most well known. Where, among other things they say it’s hot to fuck people when they are crying. They get to write for mainstream media too. Unbelievably.

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/vdqm89/everything-ive-learned-about-sex-paris-lees

This is a critique.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thearcticfeminist.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/paris-lees-another-male-perspective-on-prostitution/amp/

I wouldn’t mind, but Paris Lees insisting that they are a woman with this out-to-shock, ‘trying to be a cool girl’ narrative is as juvenile as it is male.

This one is about objectification.

www.playboy.com/articles/trans-objectification

And Janet Mock who says that prostitution is a desirable right of passage for a youngster.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/?s=Janet+mock+&submit=Search

(sorry I couldn’t immediately find the original).

Centeringwomen and the Critical feminist Facebook pages records a lot of this stuff.

cis

There was a thread about the objectification one. It got quite entertaining.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3032469-Feminists-need-to-stop-saying-objectification-is-bad

there exists an assumption that cisgender women should rightfully reside at the center of the assault and harassment discussion, which does not account for how such a centering oppresses trans and GNC people in ways that are reminiscent of how cis men marginalize cis women.

Fuck off. Can't believe "cis women are being criticized for finally airing the scale of harassment we face.
Nothing is stopping trans and non binary people using #metoo. But when I use It, I use it to talk about my experiences of harassment.

This demand to "center" other people in our issues is so misogynistic it's untrue.

Quentin

You’ve put into words what I was thinking.

No one is stopping them putting #metoo on their profiles. It’s a show of solidarity, not a fucking award.

Meanwhile, the women on here fall over themselves not to cause offence with ‘ranking’ sexual assault.

Women are always saying, of course, that’s nothing compared to what you went through. Or even feeling that adding #metoo to the profiles, was appropriating other women’s experience, despite them having an experience of their own.

If anything, women go the other way. Walking on eggshells in an effort to de-centre themselves.

The woman envy of some transwomen is so palpable.

Nothing, however bad, that could happen to a woman is seen through anything other than the jealous eyes of perceived privilege.

Transwomen’s hate is directed towards women who disagree with them, not men who abuse them.

I quite like this thought.

I have gone away to have a think about this one. On the face of it I'm still getting a gut feeling of a tone that is anti-trans, especially women who are born as men from somepeople. Also my I suspect the original poster with a name like AssignedPerfectAtBirth may be a disbeliever in terms of trans people? A lot of negative stereotypes of the nature of transwomen being banded about. I don't really have the data to refute these stereotypes (not much knowledge in this field) but all I can say the Trans people in my life do don't reflect these stereotypes so naturally I am suspicious of the validity of the stereotypes and those that would doubt the existence/sincerity of trans people base on the people I know in real life. But I am always interested to hear what people say and what they base their ideas on. We worryingly live in a world of increasing censorship in terms of identity politics and a hate crime witch hunt to silence them who go against this interpretation (but that is a different debate).

So to put our selves back on track (regardless of the posters wider view on trans people) if I understand it right the question is aimed at the nature of transactivists? The beef being not that as in their mind as women wanting to say simply me too but that they are high jacking the movement to highlight their our agender rather than as women as a whole? This question is not (at least on face value) a criticism of transwomen but more a criticism of some transactivist groups? Then if I have understood the nature of the question from what I have read I inclined to agree. They have sort tried of high jacked the movement and I can see this is a disservice to women as a whole. Although I can understand a beef from the tans side that they see them self as women but because not all the rest of the world see them as women (including maybe some of you) they feel left out. My personal feeling is this is not right to high jack this movement to highlight this issues. They should just stand in solidarity with other women and be maybe understanding that not all women believe they are women too (that is their right to in a free society, lest we forget). Going forward IMO they would be better to energise in a separate moment to highlight and maybe change the injustice they feel, me too is not an appropriate moment to tackle this separate issues. I think the question in its purist form is about the nature of transactivist groups on this subject and we shouldn't get it confused with the nature of trans people as a whole. But I must admit I do suspect the agenda of the question is to maybe have a dig/discredit trans people as a whole.

1DAD2KIDS

You sound eminently reasonable. The only thing I would say is women on here have been looking at this issue for several years.

Feminists, by nature advocate for minorities. That’s what they do.

They research, read, look at statistics, science and studies. Feminists are analysts. That is how they can analyse their own movement to protect women’s rights. It’s not about personal experience. It’s about researching and using statistics to analyse the situation.

People’s opinion is polarised by this issue. Largely because many people know perfectly harmless transsexuals who do not have an agenda and are not political. They just want to get on with it. Preferably under the radar, without drawing negative attention to themselves.

But, until you understand that there are two types of transwomen, you won’t get it.

If you watch this short link, everything will fall into place. (The man talking doesn’t really think much of feminists, so it’s not as though he is looking at this from a feminist angle).

@1DAD2KIDS you might get a ‘tone’

Bear in mind you do not know our lives. From very young we are told to watch what we say and do, don’t dress a certain way or walk home alone or give the wrong messages because people with penises will attack us and that will be our fault.

Suddenly now, if a person with a penis says, “I’m a woman” and does nothing else, we should be ok with them in our private spaces, when we’re naked, incarcerated or in need of rape counselling. You can’t understand this.

There is no 'anti trans' tone in wanting women only spaces. Why cant you see an anti women tone when someone with a penis demands to be treated like one?
That included demanding access to all womens private spaces including hospital wards and public changing rooms.

''Man strips in front of girls in locker room, says transgender law allows it''
www.lifesitenews.com/news/man-strips-in-front-of-girls-in-swimming-pool-locker-says-transgender-law-a

And he is right. He has been given the right to expose his penis to 8 year old girls, and now they have no right not to see it in the womens changing room.
Can you not see any potential problems here?

Dad
I'm unclear how I could be 'an unbeliever'. Certainly trans people exist, in more than one form (which you will see from the link Datun posted). I think that they should be afforded the same human rights and dignities as every other human being on the planet. What I refute, logically and scientifically, is that a person can change their biological sex. Sex is immutable. Gender is bollocks. It is the concept of gender which is the root of the problem here and gender has been deemed bollocks by any self respecting feminist since the 'Women's libber' days. Gender hurts males and females and each sex should be free to express their masculinity/femininity as they please and not have these roles and presentations imposed upon them by society

However, sex is a material reality and it matters to the safety and dignity of females for sex-segregation in certain circumstances, such as changing rooms, rape crisis centres, prisons and for sports. It is also important for the collation of data for medical, and other data analysis purposes. The word 'woman' has meaning and should not be co opted to mean a feeling in a person's head and so remove the means for women to accurately describe themselves and that biological, material reality

With regards my username, sex is observed at birth, not assigned, so yes, I am taking the piss a bit. The concept of AFAB/AMAB is utter nonsense, I will not be compelled to tell lies and I can poke fun at nonsense. I was originally 'AssignedMentalAtBirth" but that offended some people's sensibilities and I agreed to change it.

Sorry Dad, didn't address your point that I was having a dig at trans people in general. No I wasn't. But I was having a dig at the trans activists who claim that they are being discriminated against by the #metoo hastag.

#Metoo was a grassroots response to the Weinstein scandal by women telling of their stories of harassment, assault and abuse. It was not reasonable to be lectured to, just when we are telling our stories, on how we should remember to be inclusive of trans identified males who feel that they are women. And further, that we should feel lucky to be 'objectified' because that's what the TIMs actually yearn for.

AssignedPerfectAtBirth yep I get the question and I agree on the sort of trans activist highjack is inappropriate. As to the wider issuse of trans people that is another issue seperate to this question. I'm inclinded maybe not agree on that. But I open to debate and the freedom to have an opinion (which is increasing becoming endangered). Defininatly given me seed of doubt to look at my position in more depth.

1Dad women are reacting to the fact that transactivists have muscled into EVERY women's cause and protest and attemted to centre themselves. The women's march on Washington after Trump's election. The Me Too hashtag. The fight for reproductive rights. We can have NOTHING of our own. I don't think you have a clue, as a man, what that's like.

Surely this then runs into a battle that can not be solved because there is not a middle ground? These activists our are wanting to fully included in women's issuses because for them they are women. But there are others who say they can never join the club because of their biological birth sex. I'm not sure is this a situation you'll ever find concord when both sides are dialectictically opposed. This sounds like this debate is actually more focused on the wider debate on the legitimacy of trans people.

Personally I am still working this one out, because many on here have given me a poser. But having trans/non binary friends you could argue it's hard to be purely objective. It's hard to stay predogist against people or disbelieve/mock their personal experiance when you spend time with them and they are friends you know well.

You’re assuming that radical feminists don’t have trans friends. I have trans friends, colleagues and, importantly, I frequently work with trans youth.

There is a workable middle ground, which most of my lovely trans friends have lived in for years. That is acknowledging that biological sex is important in some ways; reproduction rights, rape crisis centres, sports. Gender is important in other ways. I don’t ‘misgender’ friends or people I meet. I think people can rub along fine. Have unisex, fully enclosed toilets. Keep all vulnerable prisoners safe in prisons. Gay offenders need that as much as transwomen.

There is no middle ground where sex is thrown away as a concept. It’s idiotic, unscientific and unworkable.

MrsTerryPratchett well I am deffinatly more for people finding ways to get along. Often part of getting along is having an understanding of the people around you. Seeking comprimise and putting aside some personal interest for the interests of wider society. A bit of give and take. Eapecially as a small minority. Is it selfish to want full reconision as a woman and access to women's spaces when born as a male in terms of birth sex? So is the beef amied at extremist Activision? Those who say see it black and white? Those who say we are women, we are oppressed so let us in, despite how uncomfortable and unsafe many women may feel? And is this discomfort and unsafeness an issue of questions over validity of someone who is trans (at least in terms of truly being a woman)? Or is the issue based on statistic based risk assement of a risk to women from trans people born of the male sex? Or both? Are you saying trans people should put the welbeing of others before their own desires?

Seeking comprimise and putting aside some personal interest for the interests of wider society. A bit of give and take.

You’re a man, right? OK. How’s about you give a small amount of your privilege before asking women to give a a huge chunk of their safety? You know, because it’s so easy to give up stuff. Let’s start with your extra money, power and then stop harassing us and we will give a little too?

it's selfish to want to be recognized as a woman when you are wagging your penis around in a women's changing room. HTH.

I don't think you are quite understanding, dad. Why the actual fuck should men with penises be allowed to legally call themselves women, enter women only spaces, and force women to suck it up?

Are you one of these fruits who genuinely believe in a female penis? A fully functioning, capable of rape and impregnation penis, but just because it happens to be wearing a frock, we all have to look the other way and let it be waved around in front of our daughters, and teach them that the it belongs to a woman? And that it's illegal to say it like it is? 'Yes darling. It's a man. Men are the only sex with a penis. But we have to call him a woman and allow him into our safe spaces, because otherwise we're being transphobic.'

I have trans friends. The less fucking bonkers among them enjoy a bit of sparring but readily acknowledge that it is gender they have a problem with, not sex. But do understand that it's problematic to claim to have a problem with gender, but allow it to dictate their whole fucking lives like they are living in a 1950s sitcom. Women have been totally sold down the river on this.

I am one hundred percent supportive of people's rights to wear what they want, be called what they like, and do whatever the hell they want. But when you get maternity services who decide they can no longer refer to the pregnant as a woman, refer to the person bearing the child as a mother, and men demanding that medical services that deal with female only issues are transphobic- the world has slipped off its axis.

I am kind, respectful, never misgender, and am fully understanding of the struggles that my trans friends go through. But don't try and tell me that I have to privately agree that the man with a beard and a penis is a woman, or that it's a fucking privilege to be sexually assaulted or have sexist abuse hurled at you, and be told you are the problem, not the violent, abusive, and misogynistic MEN. And I am teaching my children the same thing. Including my 15yo son whose best friend was born female but believes she wants to be man. She started transitioning at 13.

While I applaud your intention to listen, dad, I don't believe you are hearing us. If those two kids of yours are daughters, you had better bloody start.