#MeToo is trans-exclusionary and for white, cis, privileged women

[AssignedPerfectAtBirth]

www.bustle.com/p/some-members-of-the-lgbtq-community-feel-excluded-by-the-me-too-hashtag-its-a-reminder-of-how-important-inclusive-language-is-2953162?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=owned&utm_campaign=feminismbustle

Now if this article doesn't persuade women of the utter self centredness of the transactivists, nothing will

Or is there a point when you can prove your woman enough to join the club? If so what criteria do you need to be accepted?

You answered your own question.

"If you are born with a dick you have no place in women's spaces, you'll never be a woman (however much you may feel you are simply born in the wrong body)"

The answer, in case that's still not straightforward enough, is that the criteria is to be biologically female - ie. no dick.

BatShite thanks for your directness, some good ethical posers.

If you accept that men and women (by sex) are not equal in terms of physical strength and mass or in terms of socialisation then I see a need for sex segregation in some areas. Ideally I would like to see a far less sex segregated society but I understand the evolution of our society prevents this at the moment.

Just to give you a background some of the things that shapes my feeling. When I was in the forces I was often working with women in my technical trade. On a fair few occasions out on operations and training for operations there is a need both in terms of getting the job done and through lack of facilities to share our spaces. Living together, eating together, being alone with each other, sleeping in a shared space. Sometimes with a general lack of personal privacy for all. What I liked was the breaking down of gender barriers in those situations. I liked that to a certainty extent they stopped becoming women, they were just the same as me, and everything works so much better when not preoccupied with sex based complications. Though mural respect and trust we could work and truly live together. The women I worked with were my mates who I trust regardless of gender. Granted biology has a part to play especially in terms of strength, endurance and injury but we were not infantry. We work together and find ways to overcome these physical implications that were not huge anyway. I get that in the outside world there is not that trust and respect and thus maybe a need for sex segregation.

Loos is an easy one for me, make them genderless. I seen some genderless toilets in London in a bar I was drinking in a few weeks ago. It was a big light open plan room with individual toilet cubical on either side. Each cubical had a sink in side it and a shared big trough like skin in the room. I liked the idea. It allowed everyone to have an individual private toilet cubical without any awkwardness over gender. Also by providing this as a shared space it help breaks down some of the barriers that segregate men and women and other genders. Also removes some of the gender based awkwardness for children and children with parents of opposite sex. Plus its open nature made it feel very secure for all because dodgy behaviour has no where to hide in there. The only problem would be giving up male toilet privilege, by pooling men and women's toilets together men would have to compete for the same toilets as women and thus may have to queue. So for us men it would mean we could no longer smugly walk pass a huge queue of women waiting for the public bogs as we walk straight into the gents.

Changing rooms maybe a similar policy. More and more swimming pools seem to be adopting a shared cubical style of changing rooms. However I personally prefer an open style. Maybe in an ideal changing room situation we should have the option of both and let people vote with their feet?

Sport is probably were biological differences post puberty really kick in. In a lot of sport men and women would simply to be able to preform the same at the top level (unless in team sport you have a quota of equal amounts of people of both birth sexes). As to whether men and women at a professional level should paid based on performance output (speed, strength, etc), effort or entertainment value I think that is another issues. Probably a good case to keep sport segregated based on birth sex. Having said that its interesting that sports such as roller derby is keeping an open mind and is inclusive regardless of gender. Maybe an interesting case study in this area?

Prisons are another area of issues. I think maybe in protection of the interests of the many over the individual there is a case to keep prisons based on birth sex. But on the same hand we much be accepting that this will possibly come at the cost of someone taking their life. But probably a bigger picture argument.

In general I am not a fan of heavy handed state enforcement of things that impede on individuals moral or religious freedoms in a liberal society (within reason of course). To say that an individual has no right to be seen by someone of their choosing would not be right for me. Like wise people must be accepting that picking and choosing who they are seen by could well have an implication on the availability and time to be seen. Yes I am concerned about the heavy handedness and the very loose nature of resent hate crime, anti extremism and pornographic content laws.

I'm not sure if its fair to degrade the feeling of trans gender people as just a dress sense? Having said that I do understand there is a wide spectrum out there. For example there are men who cross dress but don't identify as a woman.

I have no problem with any medical professional of any gender, original sex or sexuality doing what they need to do. I trust their professionalism. So no I would not feel tricked, to be honest I don't give a dam as long as the do the job right and put my welfare at the centre of their actions.

I think by now its clear that I don't believe that men and women are the same by birth sex. Unlike BigDeskBob I don't believed that sex is a social construct. It makes us different and historically that differences was more important than it is today. Having said that in a modern society where male attributes are less important than ever we cant say the segregation of the sexes is justified for reasons of biology and nature per se. We have advanced to a stage where there is no reason not to break down the barriers that divide us. But I get we are not at a stage of mutual respect and trust were can be just humans and say share spaces such a changing rooms. I have been in such spaces abroad and the equality of not seeing each other a sexual object is liberating but would not work in wider society because we are yet at a position of mutual trust and respect due to the nature of our society. Plus a fair argument that as man I would not feel threatened by women in my changing room. My ex used to hit me and be physically violent. I was not bothered by the occasional bruise or dead arm. However shoe on other foot I have the size, strength and (dare I say) knowhow to knock her out. I think she only hit me because she knew I would never lay a figure on her. Of course that is my experience, I not want to diminish the experiences of other men and women who have been subject to physical abuse from women. But I have no doubt my size and strength is far more to do with my birth sex/hormones than to do with social factors (although they have a part too, started playing rugby a 13).

So I guess its a case for most that we accept trans peoples right to be who they are but also we want to protect the wishes of the majority without it being called a hate crime. I suppose it is a case that providing you believe in two different sexes then what areas do you draw the line in name of being inclusive. I probably draw it a different place to some and think more can be done to break down barriers?

By the way it is nice to find a safe space for open discussion. It is so easy these days to hammer people with the mallet of hate crime for questioning or expressing ideas that may currently not be in political vogue. I know that many of you may have views on transgender issues that may be very unpopular (and possibly professionally hazardous) in personal and professional life. Its a dangerously society were we say its not ok to have and express thoughts and ideas. Especially when there is increasing legal and professional sanctions for expressing (or potentially even accessing content) of an idea.

Yes, loos I would agree personally would be fine unisex, provided full length cubicles and such. Loos is a bit of a red herring in reality, as its probably the least important place of concern. I acknowledge that a lot of women (and men) would have issues with making it all unisex though. Womens main concern would be safety, and mens...probably the queuing you mention.

I will come back to your post (probably a lot later kids are due in in a sec), as you do raise some interesting points but

I have no problem with any medical professional of any gender, original sex or sexuality doing what they need to do. I trust their professionalism. So no I would not feel tricked, to be honest I don't give a dam as long as the do the job right and put my welfare at the centre of their actions.

Really stood out to me. I realise I was asking how you personally would feel so maybe this is where I went wrong given I imagine most men would not be bothered about a female person checking their prostate in the way that a lot of women may feel uncomfortable with a male person giving them a smear.

From the tone of this though, it sounds like you don't believe people should be able to request same sex health practitioners? Do I have that right or wrong?

I don’t think you grasped the difference between sex and gender 1, you keep getting them mixed up an awful lot.

You talk about your time in the forces and how spending time with women made them stop seeming like women to you. This quite an illuminating thing to say, the issue is not that they are biological women but that you had a preconditioned idea of how a woman is and what your relationship should be like.
Instead of getting rid of sex based definitions why not try to break down those gender ideas. There’s very very little in this world in which whether you are a boy or a girl matter, but in the things that do matter they really matter.
I find it odd that you list ‘eating together’ as one of the activities you did with the women, that’s not something that anyone is sugesting we keep seperate, just the places where genitals are exposed or people are alseep.

I don’t want to have to give up my safety or privacy so men can stop seeing me as a woman and realise that I’m more than my gender, that’s absurd.

The proposal is this, we smash the idea of gender, everyone is free to dress, call themselves, be whoever they want to be, but you can’t change biological sex.

Your time in the forces? I suggest you Google rates of sexual assault on female military personnel before you treat that as any kind of egalitarian utopia.

I also think that if men want women to treat men as non-threatening, they could do two things. First, stop your fellow men attacking us including challenging them EVERY time they joke about it, laugh at it, minimise it or disbelieve women when they tell you.

Second, stop telling women that they SHOULD be afraid of men. I was told from about 11 that 'boys will be boys'; don't dress slutty, don't walk home alone, don't be alone with a man you don't trust, don't trust men when you've been drinking, cover your drink, watch out for your friends, do martial arts, keep your keys between your fingers, always watch your back, have your phone in your hand... And if you don't do these things it's YOUR FAULT if you are attacked.

Unless the man concerned says he's a woman. In which case, you are a bigot to apply any of the above rules. You're also a bigot anyway because NAMALT.

When I was in the forces I was often working with women in my technical trade. On a fair few occasions out on operations and training for operations there is a need both in terms of getting the job done and through lack of facilities to share our spaces. Living together, eating together, being alone with each other, sleeping in a shared space. Sometimes with a general lack of personal privacy for all. What I liked was the breaking down of gender barriers in those situations. I liked that to a certainty extent they stopped becoming women, they were just the same as me, and everything works so much better when not preoccupied with sex based complications.

That's nice for you, as a man, to find sharing space with women to be an entirely positive thing. The problem is, for women, sharing space with men - especially spaces in which they are vulnerable - is incredibly risky. Just look at all the Weinstein stuff.

Being "preoccupied with sex based complications" for men is very diffrent than it is for women.

I mean, what's your biggest fear/worry if you are in a normally private area, eg changing room, with women? What do you think women's biggest fear/worry might be?

What I liked was the breaking down of gender barriers in those situations. I liked that to a certainty extent they stopped becoming women, they were just the same as me, and everything works so much better when not preoccupied with sex based complications.

You know that women are people even when you don't know them well? Do some men just not get this or something?

And one of the reasons that women sometimes would like to get together without men is to talk about things without everything being about men, every point we make having to be justified to a man, being disbelieved when we talk about our experience and men generally taking up space with walls of text their issues.

I totally understand the bathroom issue. Not because it’s more specifically troubling, but because it will affect everyone.

Everyone else made good points, so I won’t bother addressing dads post further.

By the way it is nice to find a safe space for open discussion. It is so easy these days to hammer people with the mallet of hate crime for questioning or expressing ideas that may currently not be in political vogue. I know that many of you may have views on transgender issues that may be very unpopular (and possibly professionally hazardous) in personal and professional life. Its a dangerously society were we say its not ok to have and express thoughts and ideas. Especially when there is increasing legal and professional sanctions for expressing (or potentially even accessing content) of an idea.

Is it just me or did anyone else find the tone of this creepy/threatening?

I really hope I have the wrong end of the stick but reporting anyway

And one of the reasons that women sometimes would like to get together without men is to talk about things without everything being about men, every point we make having to be justified to a man, being disbelieved when we talk about our experience and men generally taking up space with walls of text their issues.

Indeed, MrsTP!

I was trying to imagine a woman going onto a chatroom primarily aimed at/frequented by men, and lecturing them on a subject that closely affected men, and taking up soooooo much space and time in so doing. And I couldn't.

The thing that stands out for me about all of 1DAD's posts is that there's never a single moment where he recognises how different the issue of sex segregation is for women compared to men. Where he shows any empathy for the different socialisation we have, the difference in power both social and physical between men and women and how that might affect the way we see the world, the experience of going through the world as the "second sex", of going through the world on the receiving end of male violence, and having to factor that in to our daily lives in a way he can't even dream of.

Conversely, he seems to find it easy to put himself in the postion of a transwomen and demonstrate empathy for their position. Which just serves for me to reaffirm that, when all's said and done, he sees them as male. Like him. He knows they are. And as such, he understands them and where they're coming from, feels solidarity with them in a way he never will with women. Sadly.

dad, I'm ex-military. I spent 16 years living and working with men in close confines. I shared bathrooms and tents. At no point was my position as a woman compromised because every single man and woman that I worked with understood fully what sex they were. None of the men lectured me about maternity services being transphobic. None of them waved their wangers at me in either a tent or a changing room. And I was an adult female more than capable of holding my own in such an environment. A vast number of them questioned their female colleagues' ability to do their jobs. Your male dominated view of the pink fluffy equality in the british military is very telling. Most men in the military saw me as a woman first. It infiltrated every singe aspect of my job. Don't dare to tell me that my views put my profession at risk.

Where do you think my knowledge of masculinity came from?

My very good friend is a transwoman who refuses to come out at work. He dresses like a male soldier in uniform, and she lives as a woman at weekends. I use appropriate pronouns depending on which persona I am discussing.

Jeez.

What pisses me off is that I did not even warrant a reply but there was 4 pages of incomprehensible text that we are expected to plough through (I didn't). I am presuming this the all the same guy or guys who post here a lot.

What I want to know is, why don't we get the decent men posting on here? Because I know many and I'm sure many of the posters are married to fine men and have raised fine sons. But we get the fuckers who ignore that fact that we are people and who imply we should put our rapes aside to be inclusive of men.

fuck me. I was livid before. Now i'm incandescent with rage. Don't you DARE tell me what being in the forces is like as a woman. And don't you DARE tell me what it's like to live as a woman whose identity is being diluted every fucking day by men who decide they know better than i do what being a woman is.

and yes, of course I've been assaulted by servicemen. I served for 16 years. Show me a female officer who hasn't been groped, touched up, improperly addressed (got your hat with you?) or otherwise treated like a piece of fucking meat placed in service for the entertainment of the boys?

Madwoman .

Much Respect and and fury too, exasperated fury

Now that I've calmed down, I don't know whether to laugh at 1dad or cry, tbh. I could reel off a page of instances where I was treated differently as a woman (for 'differently', read 'lesser') in the military, starting with being accused of cheating in basic training because I was faster than a good swathe of the male recruits, (just in case your automatic response was that I was somehow not up to the job, dad). It was nothing at all do with me. It was entirely down to naked assumptions about what women are like, and what men are like.
I spent detachments getting pissed with the boys, only for them to either proposition me or fuck off to the brothels. (Because women are for shagging, amirite?) I spent the most uncomfortable working lunch of my career being asked to join in the entertainment (two belly dancers). Well, it's only a larf, innit? Surely the polite thing to do would have been to strip off and gyrate on the table too? Because nothing says 'professional' more than getting your kit off at a lunchtime and showing the boys a good time, amirite? If you are one of two females among sixty dudes, see how you like it. Course, there some of our trans friends that would have seen it as the ideal opportunity, I mean, who doesn't love a bit of male attention, eh??
The real low point was of course the assault stuff. I don't talk about it. The most serious incident involved either five or six of my male colleagues (I was blindfolded and hands tied while they half stripped and groped me, so I don't know exactly who was doing what). Up until that point we were enjoying the most excellent night in the bar. Bit raucous. Lots of beer. If you had asked me then, I would have told you we were all equals. Brothers in arms. You know, like your little utopia. You might have even been one of them, 1dad. They were all fine upstanding citizens too. Half an hour later I was distraught in my room in the Mess. I do wonder if those fine upstanding young men ever think about it and regret it, especially in these days of #metoo. Don't worry though, I didn't harm their promotion prospects. I never reported it.

That's a really short list of what being a woman in the military is like. I have hours more. I can do the PR version, like you did, if you like. But it doesn't mean that it's unicorns and rainbows. It just means that you have a very limited (and completely male) viewpoint of what 'equality' means. Why the fuck would your female colleagues have told you any different? You are too busy clapping yourself on the back about what a fab bloke you are, treating these female colleagues the same way you treat your male colleagues. Well done you.
So yeah. You can suck on that one a bit more, I'm afraid.

madwoman My female forces friends tell similar stories. I don't know which utopian military 1dad was in, but it wasn't the same one you and they were in.

Madwoman

MadWoman