Does the fact that MTFs are victimizers in these obscenely violent criminal acts more frequently than they are victims change how lawmakers will see their claims of eternal victimhood? I doubt it. How many male murderers will have to be given elective surgery at taxpayer expense and housed with women (far less likely to be in prison for violent crime) before someone takes a long, hard look at the reality of the situation?

OP posts:

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 22:40

Do you exclude transgender men too?

heresyandwitchcraft · 12/10/2018 22:51

100% of transgender women are biologically male.
That is the concept to really grasp, in order to fully see the picture.

Transgender women have their own issues, and should of course be protected from harm. But they are not the same as females.

Females have their own needs, including healthcare, spaces, representation, and identity.

You can sneer at the women who recognize that fact. You can dismiss the wisdom and experience of the feminists who have been tirelessly working to protect women from sex-based violence and oppression. You can smear all the journalists at the Daily Mail, Spectator, and the Times and consider the readers of these publications as "less than." You can pretend vulnerable female prisoners don't matter, maybe because you think you'll never end up there. You can call other women hateful witches and join in the calls for persecution of wrongthink, because you think you're more "enlightened" than they are. You can dismiss religious women as "crazy." You can think you're better than other women, smarter, and more caring.

You can dismiss all the women on this board, who have been thinking, speaking, and researching this issue for a VERY long time. I am but a newbie, but radical feminists probably know more than most people in this "debate," because they don't really care too much about Judith Butler and the theoretical existence of a million gender identities. They don't get bogged down by whether someone is neutrois or agender or gender-fluid or non-binary or what. Radical feminists care about female bodies, power dynamics between the sexes, male violence, and the real lives of females (as a group based on shared biological traits) which are shaped by one's sex observed at birth. That would include transgender men, also, if trans men wanted to be part of such a feminist movement.

When you actually dismiss the women who are worried:
You are choosing to side with the males who say they are women, instead of with actual females.

That isn't feminism.

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 22:59

Feminist4, my 'approach' has nothing to do with the transgender community at all. My only concern as a feminist is putting women and girls at the centre of my politics and general thinking. The only reason any trans person would intersect with that is if they themselves were actually female, or if their demands put women at risk.

It is not the job of Feminism to solve all the problems of the vulnerable groups of the world. Egalitarianism is what you might be looking for, and be welcome to it. I'm good with putting women's rights first, which is why I am a Feminist.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 23:05

I am not asking anyone to forgo rights, but you are!

Yes you are. No we are not. It's not a human right for male people to invade women's spaces. Women say no. You don't, but that's just you. I do. Respect that. You don't have the right to consent on my behalf.

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 23:05

I think you are expressing Victorian thinking to the issue of biological gender. All spaces need to be safe for women. Transgender women are hardly the threat. There are bad people full stop Transgender women want to be accepted into female society and who are you to make them feel vilified like this. You seem to see everything in black and white. It’s like saying gay people shouldn’t be allowed around the children of fundamentalist Christians because they put their children at risk. But that’s ok; they have the right to choose.

Voice0fReason · 12/10/2018 23:10

Where did I insist that anyone who says they are transgender is transgender?
So you agree that self-id is a bad idea then.

heresyandwitchcraft · 12/10/2018 23:11

Victorian thinking?
Show us the evidence that males as a reproductive sex class do NOT commit most of the rape and violence.
Until such time, I must go with the data we have.
We also have at least one paper where MtF transsexual women (fully legally/medically transitioned) were found to have offending rates equal to that of males (the transsexual woman's actual sex). I can only guess that self-identifying transwomen are even more likely to have equal risk profiles to that of the other people in their biological sex class (males).

Please do feel free to peruse these beginners threads, if you are still unsure of the feminist position:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3335962-Frequently-Asked-Questions-FAQs-I-have-noticed-here

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 23:11

Bless. It's late now, isn't it, and the random argument machine seems to malfunctioning into incoherence now.

No idea what point you were trying to make with the gay people and fundamentalist Christians, but I do always enjoy being randomly called Victorian. It's just so steampunk.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 12/10/2018 23:17

Why is not accepting feminised males in my 'female society' (who exactly is Victorian here ) a human rights violation?

I don't make them feel anything. Women are allowed boundaries even if it gives some men the sads. Managing those sads is also not women's job. Hth.

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 23:17

Bless. It's late now, isn't it, and the random argument machine seems to malfunctioning into incoherence now.

We've definitely reached the flailing stage.

I find it's what happens when mantra meets critical thinking.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 23:19

I don't make them feel anything. Women are allowed boundaries even if it gives some men the sads. Managing those sads is also not women's job. Hth.

Surprising how many people don't grasp this, isn't it?

RedDogsBeg · 12/10/2018 23:19

You can guarantee that Transgender women are absolutely no threat to women at all anywhere can you?

You say Transgender women want to be accepted into female society, I think they want to run female society in their own image, using the language they decree acceptable and I see no respect from the current vocal TRAs for women at all.

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 23:24

It’s offensive to call transgender women feminised males. It is offensive to exclude them and quote your bogus statistics. It’s as if you feel you are in the Wild West and need to shoot anything that moves- regardless of the harm it does to you - just because you need to feel ‘safe’. There are better ways to keep safe than excluding transgender women.

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 23:26

What? You think transgender women are trying to infiltrate female society to take it over and control it?

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 23:26

Flail alert! Hostile! Six o'clock! Dive! Dive!

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 23:29

Have you got a lot of cut n paste pre-written replies that you are just plonking out? I can see the argument for economy, but you haven't countered anything said to you, or responded to the responses.

Seriously, what is so wrong with being Victorian? You can hide so many useful things under a hoop skirt.

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 23:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RedDogsBeg · 12/10/2018 23:33

So now you are scorning and sneering at women for needing to feel safe?

What better ways to keep safe are you recommending?

Provide proof that the statistics are bogus, provide proof that opening the doors of female only spaces to male bodied people will have absolutely no detrimental impact on the females who use those spaces.

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 23:34

A Victorian German U-boat. Steampunk for the fucking win.

AngryAttackKittens · 12/10/2018 23:36

I want a steampunk boat! Or maybe a submarine? Always thought it would be awesome to have my very own submarine.

heresyandwitchcraft · 12/10/2018 23:37

LOL. A German U Boat?!

transgender women feminised males. It is offensive to exclude them and quote your bogus statistics.

Transgender women ARE feminine appearing or woman-identifying males. That's what the whole "assigned male at birth" thing actually means, but in strange language.

It is not offensive to exclude males from the category female. It's actually conceptually impossible to include some males in the category female, while excluding others, while retaining some kind of coherent definition. It's been tried a million times. Believe me, they would have re-written the dictionary by now if they could have managed it yet. However much people want to deny reality, males are not the same as females, and never will be. It's the whole bloody point of having sexual reproduction as a species.

Come up with some better statistics, then, if ours are bogus, regarding male pattern violence and trans patterns of crime.

Being offensive is better than lying about important facts.

Datun · 12/10/2018 23:38

It is offensive to exclude them and quote your bogus statistics

Transwomen confirm to male pattern criminality. Furthermore transwomen with AGP pose a specific threat to women.

You are offended because

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

Unfortunately,
10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it males men look bad.

Be offended. It's so predicable, it's on the list.

LemonJello · 12/10/2018 23:42

It is offensive to exclude them

It may be offensive but it’s allowed thanks to the Equality Act 2010. I bet thats offensive too?

Now I gots to go fix me a sasparilla.

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 23:43

Well, there’s a lot wrong with Victorian values. Where shall I start? Claiming that whole communities of people are a threat and ‘different’ for a start. I hear your issue of wanting to allow women to be selective about who should pass the immigration control centre and be allowed to enter women only ‘safe’ spaces. I do not agree with it and I am a woman. But most of all I can’t abide your arguments that seek to condemn transgender women to some hinterland where they cannot be accepted into female society. Do you know any transgender women? Because I do and they are not the potential sex offenders you talk about. Why don’t we have single sex supermarkets and cinemas and ensure we separate male and female children at birth - just in case there is a risk there is a sex offender in our midst.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 12/10/2018 23:44

I. Don't. Care. If. They. Are. Offended.

I'm not their mum with a tissue and hot chocolate.

Grow up.

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Number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims in UK **Title amended by MNHQ**

Number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims in UK Title amended by MNHQ