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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims in UK **Title amended by MNHQ**

737 replies

WombOfOnesOwn · 20/10/2017 01:59

This year, the number of murderers who are transgender is higher in the UK than the number of murder victims.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4156440/Transgender-woman-boyfriend-murdered-flatmate.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4997224/Father-two-stabbed-death-transgender-woman.html

And then there's attempted murders and current murderers declaring themselves trans while behind bars:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jailed-killer-who-chopped-testicles-9882176

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/transgender-murderer-moved-womens-prison-9770465

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/transgender-woman-accused-trying-murder-9569383

www.thesun.co.uk/news/2193637/transgender-female-running-champ-to-be-detained-in-hospital-after-trying-to-murder-top-uk-athletics-official/

Does the fact that MTFs are victimizers in these obscenely violent criminal acts more frequently than they are victims change how lawmakers will see their claims of eternal victimhood? I doubt it. How many male murderers will have to be given elective surgery at taxpayer expense and housed with women (far less likely to be in prison for violent crime) before someone takes a long, hard look at the reality of the situation?

OP posts:
SophoclesTheFox · 12/10/2018 16:46

Great post heresy

PersonWithAVulva · 12/10/2018 16:47

It is exactly the kind of bigoted comment that shows that there Is no understanding of the reasons the vast majority of transgender women want to access these spaces.

The reasons generally given about why transwomen want to access those areas is male violence. A fear I understand.

However when women say that they don't want male people in womens spaces because of male violence, they are told they are hysterical, fearmoingering, not all males are dangerous..etc.

Why is a fear of male violence only relevant when its male people fearing it and when women fear the same thing they are bigots?

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 16:58

Citation please, Roisin.

Last time I looked at the relevant legislation sexual assault by penetration was an equally serious, albeit distinct, offence, which carried the same sentencing guidelines.

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 17:06

the reasons the vast majority of transgender women want to access these spaces

Frankly, my priority comprises the reasons why women don't want males to access these spaces. Reasons you seem to dismiss very readily, in a very anti-feminist manner. Ho hum.

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 17:45

The reason I ask for a citation, btw, if you're lurking is this: To the best of my knowledge no ammendments have been made to the 2003 sexual offences act. Under that act, rape is defined to be penetration using a penis. So there has to be a biological male involved. (Very occasionally, a woman will be involved too, say, holding the victim down, and be convicted under common purpose - but such cases are extremely rare - about one per decade). So the fact that six "women" were convicted of rape last year is, shall we say, interesting.

The other relevant fact is that trans ideologues have an established history of coming on here and flat out lying about the law. (For instance, telling us that it is already illegal to deadname someone, or to use the wrong pronouns, when in fact it is not.) Thus it is not beyond the realms of possibility that some goady fucker is coming on here spreading deliberate misinformation to muddy the waters over the one crime which unequivocally involves the use of a penis.

If Roisin is in good faith, I'm sure Roisin will be able to link to the relevant part of the government website www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1 and point us to the place where this text has been superceded. If Roisin is not able to do this, I shall assume Roisin is not acting in good faith on this thread, but is in fact deliberately trying to spread misinformation.

QuietContraryMary · 12/10/2018 18:09

Apparently Roisin's an Urban Warrior Princess. Hmm
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/newbies_corner/a3224148-Newbie-Here

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 18:09

Agree with Fermats re SOA definition of rape. We need a reference if you're claiming differently.

QuietContraryMary · 12/10/2018 18:11

Also just worthy of note, Roisin IS in Jersey and the law may be different there, but hardly relevant to the rest of the UK

QuietContraryMary · 12/10/2018 18:12

Saying that, the 2018 Jersey Sexual Offences Law seems to be quite clear

www.jerseylaw.je/laws/enacted/Pages/L-20-2018.aspx#_Toc515633436

'A person (“D”), who intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (“C”) with D’s penis'

Hmm
Datun · 12/10/2018 18:15

It is exactly the kind of bigoted comment that shows that there Is no understanding of the reasons the vast majority of transgender women want to access these spaces.

Then you're not reading what I'm writing.

Women decide their own boundaries. The reason some men want to violate those boundaries have no bearing on it being women's decision.

The level of intensity or motivation to access womens space does not dilute women's agency over their boundaries.

You seem to think that if only women understand, they will concede.

No.

CassandraCross · 12/10/2018 18:30

there Is no understanding of the reasons the vast majority of transgender women want to access these spaces.

So, do enlighten us as to the reasons the vast majority of transgender woman want access to these spaces.

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 18:41

It’s pretty obvious they want to access these spaces as they identify as women. A concept many people here reject. No need to give me the boring repetitive mantra about what women want. I’m a woman and I’m happy to welcome transgender women into my spaces.

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 18:49

Feminist4, doesn't matter what rights you are willing to cede as a woman. You have no authority whatsoever to give away other women's rights. That is way beyond your gift.

RedDogsBeg · 12/10/2018 19:03

Perfectly put Floral.

SophoclesTheFox · 12/10/2018 20:08

i am also very interested in the reform of rape law that has entirely passed me by- would like some more detail please roisin?

and yy floral. you have your boundaries, feminist and I have mine. mine are not in your power to change.

arranfan · 12/10/2018 20:41

Helpfully, for those who are interested in trial design and various testings artefacts (and that stuff is vital :) ) there is specific comment on just what is amiss with that Batrinos Testosterone paper: notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/12/03/comments-on-batrinos-2012/

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 20:44

Feminist4, doesn't matter what rights you are willing to cede as a woman. You have no authority whatsoever to give away other women's rights. That is way beyond your gift.

I think I'm going to copy and past your words to every cool girl who thinks other women don't matter.

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 21:45

It doesn’t involve me ceding rights as far as I’m concerned. Just respecting the rights of others.

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 21:53

Feminist4 you are not respecting the rights of other women to say no. I'll reiterate, just because you're happy enough to forgo the right to a same sex HCP for example, doesn't mean you get to give away that right for another woman.

Or do you think it's normal, respectful behaviour to offer up other women's boundaries because you're not bothered? You don't mind the bloke on the bus grabbing your boobs, so you see no issue with cheering him on as he grabs mine?

heresyandwitchcraft · 12/10/2018 21:54

It’s pretty obvious they want to access these spaces as they identify as women. A concept many people here reject. No need to give me the boring repetitive mantra about what women want. I’m a woman and I’m happy to welcome transgender women into my spaces.

Firstly - a boring repetitive mantra about what women want? Really? Your username proclaims you to be a feminist, yet you dismiss women's voices and experiences like this? Women are telling you exactly what they want. Women are saying they do not feel safe or comfortable around any men when they are vulnerable, no matter what name the man has, how the man feels, or what fashion the man wears. But you would rather ignore these women. Are their concerns beneath yours? That sounds quite elitist, frankly.

Most women on here do reject the concept that the feelings of a male who identifies as a woman should be prioritized over the feelings of females. Most women posting here will center the needs of the female in a scenario, not focus on exclusively on how to best preserve that male's ego. Because this is the feminist board and most feminists listen to women first.

I don't give a damn if you feel comfortable with males in your space, as long as they say they are women. I don't give a damn if some women are fine changing in front of gay males. I don't give a damn if some women are alright with being intimately examined by a straight male doctor. I don't give a damn if some women want unisex spaces. I don't give a damn if some women are unbothered by the prospect of sharing a cell with the likes of a Jacinta Brooks, Lian Huntley or Karen White.

I give a damn about empowering that one woman who is saying NO. Her autonomy, rights, feelings and boundaries are the ones that matter most to me.

I care, deeply, about the women who do not want to be around any male (trans or not) when they are vulnerable, incarcerated, in a state of undress, etc.

Single-sex spaces and services are set up for females only, to protect women when they might be at risk. They're for all women's comfort, dignity and safety. It is not for the "but I am fine with it" people to unilaterally decide whether some males get let in, speculate on which males are the "good ones" and run roughshod over the feelings of other women who really need that female-only space.

As Floral says, far more succinctly, it is not for anyone else to decide to give away another woman's rights.

It doesn’t involve me ceding rights as far as I’m concerned. Just respecting the rights of others.
You're not respecting the rights of the females who do not want these changes. You're trampling all over their ability to consent - because you insist your "yes" is worth more than their "no."

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 22:16

Honestly, when the Daily Mail is cited as a source of reliable information then the case is well and truly lost. I am not asking anyone to forgo rights, but you are! Genuine and vulnerable transgender women need to be protected and not vilified. Quote whatever questionable statistics you like - it does not make you arguments stack up. You forget the 99% of transgender women we should accept and welcome. Lets fight the real injustices in this world. Grouping all transgender women in with the few bad apples is a dangerous and immoral action. Just as I don't want to be judged as being similar to Rosemary Wests of this world.

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 22:25

I don't know what it is, but I'm getting the distinct impression you're not listening.

My female friends and I have the right to say we do not want a male bodied person in certain spaces. We are allowed to say no to our sports being erased, the single sex exemptions being removed, and to decide whether a male inserts a speculum into us or not.

What you are proposing removes all those rights. What do you not understand about that?

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 22:27

Oh, and I'm sorry but having a pop at 'questionsble statistics' and then trotting out '99% of transwomen blah blah blah' is my favourite lack of self awareness moment of the evening.

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 22:31

But your approach is very hostile to the transgender community. A community that is vulnerable.

RedDogsBeg · 12/10/2018 22:34

How do you, or I, or any woman or girl know with 100% certainty who the 'good' men are? We don't, so we exclude all males from female only spaces as a precaution.

How do you, or I, or any women or girl know with 100% certainty who the 'good' transgender people are? We don't and you are asking us to set aside all precaution and take a risk on the basis of what, exactly?

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