Boys can enter girls' dormitories at state boarding school

[pisacake]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-boys-to-board-withgirls-at-gordons-school-qrllwztm3

"Gordon’s School in Woking, Surrey, is drawing up guidance for pupils saying they can ask to wear the uniform of the opposite sex, be addressed by a different name and/or pronouns, use gender-neutral ­lavatories, grow their hair long if they are boys, change their accommodation and wear make-up and jewellery."

Note that the uniform policy says:

www.gordons.surrey.sch.uk/uniform

"Make-up and nail varnish are both not allowed. This includes all make-up.
Girls are only allowed one earring in the lobe of each ear – no other piercings are allowed. With the exception of the above rule, jewellery is not allowed."

So it appears they are allowing make-up in order to cater for boys who want to dress up as girls. Line edited by MNHQ

"The school said it had acted because it had “become aware of students who would ‘come out’ after leaving the school”. It wanted pupils to feel safe to do so while still in their care."

Being safe obviously means allowing boys to sleep in the girls dormitories which are supposed to be safe spaces for girls who may be thousands of miles from their parents (most boarders are army children).

"The Boarding Schools’ Association has issued guidance to schools saying that if a boy intends to change gender he should be offered the chance to sleep in the girls’ dormitory and vice versa."

"Not all parents are happy about such changes. On Friday, parents at Highgate, a coeducational London private day school, received a letter from the head teacher, Adam Pettitt, apologising for the introduction of gender-neutral lavatories. Some younger pupils, he admitted, had felt “less comfortable and happy at school” as a result.

Highgate brought in the lavatories “to support gender-fluid pupils”, only for parents to ask if the change was “proportionate” given how few such students were at the school."

@TempStamos

This is Danielle Muscato. A self declared transwoman who took us space in a woman' shelter because 'she' feels like a woman. Would you honestly be okay getting changed in front of this person?

I would feel greatly uncomfortable as a female if I saw my trans male friend enter the female toilets, similarly I would feel equally uncomfortable to allow my trans female friend to have to enter the male toilets.

Sex and gender are not interchangeable. Male and female is sex, not gender.

I had to do swimming lessons at school in a regulation high leg, racer back, black swimming costume. The classes were mixed, I went to one class and bunked off/forged notes for the rest year.
I did not want to stand next to naked in front of a room full of teenage boys.

The thought of having to do that and then my evening refuge, away from the male gaze, being robbed from me in having to share my bathroom and bedroom with a teen boy would have been enough for me to run away/shirk off school and therefore lose out on education, fail exams and not gain my career.

I was sexually assaulted before the age of 12, most women I know were sexually assaulted or harassed before the age of 18. A fear of men is not irrational of "hysteria", it is a fear of violence and it is valid.

Until the male sex deal with their violence on a mass scale, please do not accept the female sex to accept them blindly in spaces we need.

But you can't base this on personal experience of trans people.

Of course there are many many lovely people who would just go about their day. Peope who you wpuld be friends with etc

But do you really think you cab police a situation like that? That you can ensure the o my people who enter are harmless?

You just can't. You really cant.

So the safest for all answer is a separate space or Sex segregation

I don't think anyone thinks children are purposely identifying as trans for an ulterior motive.

Of course I understand that some trans people want to use the bathroom of their gender. But why should their needs and rights trump those of women?

Transwomen commit violent crime at exactly the same rate as any other man. Only 15% of transwomen have genital surgery. Many (most?) of them are attracted to women.

So you've got a man, with a penis, who is attracted to women, being given access to women in a vulnerable situation because why? He wants it?

Why do we teach our daughters to maintain their boundaries, have high self-esteem, to understand they can say no and what consent means, and in the next breath tell them to get changed in front of a fully equipped man who is attracted to females?!

This school is letting trans children undress with the gender of the children they identify as.

The problem is Temp is that gender identity cannot be verified; we just have to take a person's word for it when they say they identify as something or feel a certain way.

It used to be the case that you had to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in order to be allowed to socially and physically transition but this is not the case any more. Please see Danielle Muscato who I mentioned above.

And what about transboys? What do we do there? A transman was raped in a men's hostel very recently because even though he identified as a man the rapist still saw a woman's biology and therefore a woman.
So what happens there? We force the young transboys to sleep in the boys dorm where they could be vulnerable, or do we give them a choice which basically means we now have everyone in the girls dormitory.

The issue is male violence, this is why we have sex segragated spaces in the first place.
If trans women are vulnerable in the men's dorms because of male violence how about we try and tackle that, teach our kids that there will be no tolerance to bullying and everyone can present how they like, instead of moving the responsibility away from men to control themselves and onto women to make space.

Why are you talking about toilets? This thread is about children's dorms.

I thought we were discussing changing rooms, which aren't that dissimilar from dormitories, which do also contain toilets.

I'm getting a lot of replies...
Yes I am female. (not trans)
By the harm being greater if the situation is reversed, I meant forcing trans girls, many of which will want to wear dresses, makeup have long hair (jazz jennings for example) to enter the male bathroom, with the others males who will hopefully be unknowing of what is in her underwear. Similarly forcing a trans boy into the female toilets (but i understand how the opposite is the main point of this conversation, as the majority of you are female)

I think the problem is is that Temp is going off the old definition of trans. It used to be the case that you had to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in order to socially and physically transition but this is not the case any more. There has been a big push recently to move towards self identification. There is no longer a need for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and no proof required any more; all you have to say now is that you identify as trans and that's it. That's why we now have people like Danielle Muscato taking a place in a woman's shelter and Riley Dennis claiming to be a lesbian because they are in a relationship with a woman.

many of which will want to wear dresses, makeup have long hair

What about boys/men who want to wear dresses, wear makeup and have long hair but aren't/don't identify as trans? People who just want to be men/boys with long hair and wear makeup...do you think they should still use the women's toilets because they might be on the receiving end of abuse in the men's?

So yiubare admitting that a woman including a transwoman woukd not be safe in the men's loos?

So to solve that problem we let men into the women's space?

The only men who would use a women's space are probably the very men you wouldn't want in there anyway

Sorry, piza. I meant to address that to temp. (I realise that my post was spectacularly unclear)

This whole transgender rights is ridiculous

Penis ? male toilets and rooms
No penis? Female toilets and rooms

End of. Why complicate it ?

When I was at school two of my best friends were young gay boys, they were relentlessly bullied by the boys and they found refuge with the girls, I know that Pe was very traumatic for them and getting changed in front of the other boys was horrific.
If they option had been there for them to 'become a girl' I have no doubt in my mind that they would have done, school life would have been so much easier for them.

However they both grew up to be perfectly normal gay guys and have no interest being girls at all.

Their experiences were awful and no one should have to go through that, but we need to sort out the root of the problem, male violence.

@Ordermeacurry

We are talking about children here, the school arent going to say you can be a boy today and a girl tomorrow. Of course these children have gender dysphoria, their parents are not going to make them identify as the opposite gender, change their name, their clothes, visit doctors/therapist and apply to a school to identify as this gender for a laugh.

*Today 22:31 Gileswithachainsaw

So yiubare admitting that a woman including a transwoman woukd not be safe in the men's loos?

So to solve that problem we let men into the women's space?*

Exactly this.
How are people unable to reason with this logic?

We are talking about children here, the school arent going to say you can be a boy today and a girl tomorrow. Of course these children have gender dysphoria, their parents are not going to make them identify as the opposite gender, change their name, their clothes, visit doctors/therapist and apply to a school to identify as this gender for a laugh.

Ehh, have you actually watched the news lately?

And temp being kids they are possibly going through puberty as their biological sex and will be in full possession of fully functioning genitalia.

Couple that with hormones...

we need to sort out the root of the problem, male violence.

Yes. Why is it just accepted that GNC people are assaulted in male facilities? This is not ok.

Let's be honest though most of those trans women would just use the women's toilets just like they always have done. No one is checking genitals at the door of toilets.
But it's about our right to question someone in the space, if we aren't allowed to question anybody then we are literally just saying anyone can come in. The vast majority of men wouldn't do t because they respect women but the very small minority of men who would are the narcissists and the exact people you don't want in the women's toilets.

So this is a secondary school. I am going to be blunt here - these pupils will be masturbating in their beds/showers etc. Of course they will. They are teens.
It is not appropriate to have teenagers with penises changing and sleeping in a dormitory with teenagers with vaginas.

How the fuck does this even need to be said? They are teenagers. This is bonkers.

And you do know that 12+ yr olds these days are having sex getting pregnant etc

X-post giles!