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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Guardian article - gender critical.

146 replies

AssignedPerfectAtBirth · 06/10/2017 08:34

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/06/feminist-linda-bellos-women-trans-male-violence

Brilliant and important article. Kudos to the Guardian for printing

OP posts:

ErrolTheDragon · 06/10/2017 08:39

Excellent piece, and hope that the Guardian is coming to its senses at last.

badbadhusky · 06/10/2017 08:46

It is excellent. It also says they'll be turning the comments on later - presumably after the moderators have limbered up and finished their shreddies.

Blanchefleur · 06/10/2017 08:55

I was just coming on to post this! Great article which covers a lot - the no platforming of Linda Bellos, Murray Edwards, punch a terf, radical feminism and male violence.

So many great points made. Let's hope that the Guardian takes note of the following:

The term “Terf” and the violent rhetoric that often accompanies it only serve to obscure the reality: women and trans people alike are targets of male violence. To make radical feminists the villains is to blame men’s violence on women’s thoughts.

and

being made to think difficult thoughts is not the same as being harmed.

and

These questions are not raised from cruelty or bigotry, but necessity.

As I write this, the article is not yet open for comments. It will be interesting to see what that brings.

hackmum · 06/10/2017 09:36

It's great to see this in the Guardian after its recent fairly dodgy record on trans issues. Once the comments open, I think people should comment if they can, in a measured and reasonable way, as I strongly suspect there'll be an invasion of TAs making a co-ordinated attack on Claire.

Anlaf · 06/10/2017 09:43

Great article - Claire blogs/tweets as Sister Outrider and is always worth following:

twitter twitter.com/ClaireShrugged

sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/

Terfing · 06/10/2017 10:00

Let's get ready to comment positively!

I love Sister Outrider. She's a brilliant, informative writer. I follow her on Twitter. She always makes great points.

Anlaf · 06/10/2017 10:36

She's a brilliant, informative writer
Yep, so true!

Tom Holland (late of Shon faye twitter bunfight) is on the case:
twitter.com/holland_tom/status/916205965229338624

BTW I will dump this here - doc on Linda Bellos and others on feminist activism. They were very angry! although they managed somehow not to beat up any 60 year olds

Natsku · 06/10/2017 11:15

Really good article, have shared it on twitter, hoping my friend who I had a reasonable debate with about trans issues (he's very much fallen for the TRA line of reasoning and shouts about terfs etc.) when I shared another article might read it and think on it

theendisnotnigh · 06/10/2017 11:35

At last! The Guardian's deliberate silencing of women over Transgender issues has been a disgrace for a respected newspaper. However, one article does not make ethical journalism. It will take more than this for me to reinstate my subscription.

MacaroonMama · 06/10/2017 13:51

So relieved to read this! We need much more of the same from the Guardian. I want them to turn the comments on now so we can get in first with all the positive stuff

jellyfrizz · 06/10/2017 14:12

impatiently waiting for comments to open....

DJBaggySmalls · 06/10/2017 14:13

It will be interesting to see the comments.

Terfing · 06/10/2017 14:19

I do think that The Guardian's stance on transgenderism has lots them a lot of readers and money. I also think that they know this, which is why they've laid off the pro-trans articles recently.

The very few gender critical articles they have published have been outside opinion pieces, meaning that they're not willing to put their name onto it just yet. However, I think these articles are to test the waters. If they get a positive reaction, they may change their view entirely...

YetAnotherSpartacus · 06/10/2017 14:19

I wonder if they will really allow comments?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/10/2017 14:22

being made to think difficult thoughts is not the same as being harmed

This I thought was the most important part. Surely, at uni thinking about difficult concepts is kind of the whole point....

Lottapianos · 06/10/2017 14:26

'being made to think difficult thoughts is not the same as being harmed'

Loved this. There's so much of it around. It was the same in John Harris' video piece on the Guardian website about Brexit - as soon as he suggested to Leave voters that it might not all be sunshine and roses, they turned nasty and walked off. People are becoming more and more scared to think and have their opinions and feelings challenged

Good article and I'm glad they published it

hackmum · 06/10/2017 14:46

Terfing: "I do think that The Guardian's stance on transgenderism has lots them a lot of readers and money."

Do you really think so? I think the people who care about this issue are in a minority. I honestly don't think most people have cottoned on yet to what's happening.

The main reason the Guardian is losing money is they provide a free website with an enormous amount of content, while about 80% of online advertising revenue goes to Facebook and Google.

nauticant · 06/10/2017 15:59

It's not simply down to focusing on trans rights but I think the past decade of ridiculous navel-gazing articles based on fringe identity politics has turned a lot of people off reading the Guardian.

They did rally with their magnificent phone hacking work but that's a fair few years ago now.

CocoaIsGone · 06/10/2017 16:11

'Being made to think different thoughts is not the same as being harmed'

My first response was that no-one can make you think different thoughts. In a reasoned debate, views are aired, it is up to you what you pick up, what you agree with, what you disagree with. That is healthy debate. Not everyone thinks the same, nor should they be made to.

My second thought is that of course people can be made to think different thoughts, it is the essence of coercive control and psychological abuse. It is when a dominant person or group starts misusing language, re-writing history or altering meaning to make you start to doubt your reality.

I have not read the article yet, but I don't think women are the dominant group shaping the language, discourse or thoughts.

retreatwhispering · 06/10/2017 16:33

At last.

And I'm looking forward to binge-reading Sister Outrider's blog.

ErrolTheDragon · 06/10/2017 16:42

'Being made to think different thoughts is not the same as being harmed'

You have a point, cocoa - I think that statement should be more like 'being made to think about different ideas to your own is not the same as being harmed'.

Of course, it's extremely harmful not to ever engage with other viewpoints.

hingedspeculum · 06/10/2017 16:43

"Hearing different thoughts" would have been a better phrasing of that sentiment. Heuchan isn't trying to indoctrinate any audience, just for them to be exposed to another viewpoint.

soapboxqueen · 06/10/2017 16:53

They've still not turned the comments on. I wonder if they've chickened out.

badbadhusky · 06/10/2017 16:57

I wondered that, soap.

busyboysmum · 06/10/2017 17:05

It seems very hard to comment on articles like this. And it would be nice to see a lot of well balanced sensible comments if only we were able to post the damn things.

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