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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guardian article - gender critical.

146 replies

AssignedPerfectAtBirth · 06/10/2017 08:34

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/06/feminist-linda-bellos-women-trans-male-violence

Brilliant and important article. Kudos to the Guardian for printing

OP posts:
cuirderussie · 07/10/2017 09:41

www.the-pool.com/beauty/beauty-honestly/2016/35/juno-dawson-on-discovering-the-sisterhood-of-make-up

Juno mansplains feminism. ..it's actually about make-up

MacaroonMama · 07/10/2017 09:48

Are there comments on there now? I still can't see any. It just says 'comments will be turned on later' when I check. The Jess Phillips (up the Brummies, woo hoo!)/Juno stuff - is that all on Twitter?

retreatwhispering · 07/10/2017 10:05

Still no comments?

Guardian, you clawed back a bit of my respect and are rapidly losing it again. Spineless. And ethically questionable.

The Guardian doesn't really care about women.

CocoaIsGone · 07/10/2017 10:18

Who is Juno Dawson?

QuentinSummers · 07/10/2017 10:34

Trans gender columnist for Glamour magazine cocoa. Wrote a well received book about being gay for teens when known as James Dawson, then came out as trans. Columns in Glamour tend to infuriate me, especially this one www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/what-it-means-to-be-a-real-feminist

I read yesterday that Glamour is going online only, wonder if all this bollocks had anything to do with it (they gave Caitlyn Jenner a woman of the year award, then last year they gave one to Bono Hmm)

cuirderussie · 07/10/2017 10:37

Quentin that wasn't good for my blood pressure, argh! AngryAngryAngry What a tin-eared arrogant cock.

Zoll · 07/10/2017 10:38

Jess Philips was on the committee that made the recommendations to disestablish sex based protections in law. She's not on our side.

QuentinSummers · 07/10/2017 10:47

zoll politicians like Jess are in a very difficult position, it's only very recent questioning gender politics has become in any way ok. Previously the whole "TERF"/No platforming thing could really damage people's careers. For a lot of people, the association with TERF meant they would just discount the arguments.

Women like Jenny Murray and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie have done us all a huge service by providing a way for people to start engaging with this and questioning it. Then they come to their own conclusions.

Most of us started out as good trans allies before we became aware of the implications of that (for me it getting kicked out of an online parenting group for saying I didn't think trans women were the same as cis women. I had no idea how controversial that was at the time).

I think she is on our side. I also think we need to be supportive of any woman in politics, they take an awful lot of shit to serve the country.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/10/2017 10:50

I wouldn't write someone off because they were on a committee - presumably a lot of members of committees don't agree with some or all of their recommendations.

Anlaf · 07/10/2017 10:52

There was a good interview with Jess by Janice Turner. I think she may be able to be brought fully onside. If anyone's in Jess's constituency please do write to her.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jess-phillips-labour-under-corbyn-feels-like-i-ve-been-locked-out-of-my-home-laura-pidcock-amber-rudd-maria-miller-stella-creasey-jacob-rees-mogg-gs5xp8mh7

Given her Women’s Aid role and that she was part of the Tory MP Maria Miller’s consultation, I ask how she feels about proposals on transgender rights, which go to further consultation this autumn; such as enshrining gender self-identity — you are whatever gender you feel yourself to be — as a protected legal characteristic. Or ending the exemption for women’s refuges to exclude those born male.

Ms Phillips notes that everyone entering a refuge is assessed on whether they endanger vulnerable, abused women. “Any risk at all, you can refuse. If a man turned up with a beard, dressed like a bloke, and said, ‘I want to come into your refuge’, I would take on the lawyers! Every single time we used to advertise a job at Women’s Aid, some bloody libertarian bloke would apply for it and then try and take us to court. We’ve been dealing with this shit for decades. So there is no way that person would ever get into a refuge that I was running.”

She was shocked that Ms Miller refused to hear from women’s sector groups, and she told Mr Corbyn not to support legal change until after the second consultation. He ignored her advice. “What this whole issue has brought up concerns what it feels like to be a woman, to grow up as a woman and understand all the cues, that you get a smaller piece of cake.”

Anlaf · 07/10/2017 10:57

A Woman's Place have info on how to write to your MP on this, btw.

Jess P has retweeted them so would I am sure be happy to hear from Brum Yardley residents!

twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK

CocoaIsGone · 07/10/2017 10:58

Thank you for the explanation of who Juno Dawson is.
So basically, a role model for young gay men, who then had helped completely de-stabilise gender politics and thus no doubt led some of those young men to question their own identity.
It is homophobic, isn’t it?

Zoll · 07/10/2017 11:00

I agree with you that those statements seem more promising. I also think that what matters is what goes into law, not what people say on Twitter or in interviews.

At best she's been a useful idiot. I certainly hope she sees the serious danger of her political actions and stops them going further, I really do.

morningrunner · 07/10/2017 13:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MmmmmmBop · 07/10/2017 13:49

For those who wanted to express support in the comments (had they ever been opened Hmm), FYI the article is posted on the Guardian Opinions Facebook page, if you want to give it a like, or gird your loins and wade into the discussion.

birdsdestiny · 07/10/2017 13:57

I think it is really important to stress the importance of what Jenni Murray etc did. They were brave women. I hope that there will come a time when debating this issue becomes mainstream. If it does it will only be because those women were prepared to raise their heads above the parapet.

Terfing · 07/10/2017 14:05

Owen Jones is mouthing off on Twitter... He is claiming that transphobia is the last acceptable form of bigotry. He really doesn't have a fucking clue, does he?

busyboysmum · 07/10/2017 14:12

Apparently guardian are live at the moment on facebook messenger so might be worth asking them directly why the comments were not open on this article? The more of us that do it I guess the more attention they will pay to us.

SmartiesHaveTheAnswer · 07/10/2017 14:20

The Guardian have slated Theresa May before for her lack of voice on Women's Issues.

I hope the tide is turning. Too many journalists have turned away from this issue.

Bring on the change!!

cuirderussie · 07/10/2017 14:24

Owen is citing Ellie Mae O'Hagan, a completely thick ninny, to "prove" that most feminists are behind him. These people scare me.

AssignedPerfectAtBirth · 07/10/2017 14:38

Owen Jones is the perfect storm of why people are turning away from Labour IMO. He is a smug, arrogant, self important twerp who likes to play victim and then spits out his dummy when he isn't 'listened' to in the manner he demands. And he seems to have a particular issue with women.

And he is another reason for the declining journalism at the Guardian. Little wonder that they fail to take women's issues seriously when they promote him so heavily.

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Terfing · 07/10/2017 14:40

I agree. He winds me up more than Katie Hopkins does!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/10/2017 14:43

OJ is like so many gay men I know - they still like their dicks metaphorically sucked by the same women they despise.

BetsyM00 · 07/10/2017 14:44

The comments on Facebook are non too positive :(
www.facebook.com/GuardianOpinion/posts/1676690492363473

terryleather · 07/10/2017 14:47

I’ve just been reading Owen & Ellie’s pathetic virtue signalling misogynistic guff on Twitter.

Don’t know why they don’t just tweet “STFU all women I don’t agree with” and save themselves the trouble, but then they wouldn’t get that nice warm pious feeling of being “on the right side of history” and backpats from leftybros.

Gahhhhhhhhh it gives me the radge so bad I could scream!