Irish referendum - abortion - should men vote?

[Schtinkay]

Fabulous news. Finally a referendum in Ireland to decriminalise abortion. About bloody time.

But should men be allowed to vote on an issue that is about controlling rights, freedoms and bodies of women?

I don't think so. Very interested in thoughts.

For those interested, this is the text that we'll be voting to remove from the Constitution:

The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

10:56 @flaviaalbia

that doesn't make sense. NI voted in Brexit and I'd argue will be more affected than any other part of the UK.

16 year olds. Europeans who have given their tax money, sweat and tears to this country and Brits living in europe were not allowed the vote. We just got the consequences handed to us on a plate.

'No, it is 1% of men (or whatever) who commit rape. Given that only 1% of men will rape and 100% of women are potential victims, you can either target this 1% of men (which does happen) or 100% of women.'

By that reasoning, 100% of men are potential rapists. So why not make them stay at home?

No, it is 1% of men (or whatever) who commit rape. Given that only 1% of men will rape and 100% of women are potential victims, you can either target this 1% of men (which does happen) or 100% of women.

Come to that, men rape both men and women, so they should doubly stay at home.

Plus, assault - men are both the bulk of the perpetrators, and a majority of the victims.

So Really, men should be the ones staying home for their own safety, it's just statistics.

I think it's interesting to see the framing of this- the idea that men might not be allowed to vote over something happening to women's bodies suggests that everyone is in agreement the abortion referendum is about something happening to women's bodies.

Trust me, the issue in Ireland is not predominantly about controlling women's bodies, in the way I think it clearly is in parts of America. The majority of people here were raised to believe life starts at conception. I absolutely believe there are people who want to exert control over women's reproductive freedom for purely misogynistic reasons, but they are not the main voices in this. I have had discussions with many female friends, including mothers, who have said they still believe this- the ones I know will vote to allow other women to make other choices, but fundamentally believe that there is a life there before birth.

This is what the abortion will be won or lost on. There is no moral capital to be made on 'traditional' issues around contraception, cohabitation, divorce anymore. It's just this one left standing. And that's because for most of the electorate, it isn't about women's bodies, it's about the question of at what point the women are carrying another life and what our responsibilities to that life are. In which case, why should only women get to decide on a huge moral question like that?

The leaders of the pro-life movement here are female, believe it or not I know ordained clergy with more progressive views on abortion than the women leading those movements. They are currently using victims of rape, and women conceived by rape, in their arguments. It makes no sense, but many of them argue that women will be forced into abortion without a law to protect them and their unborn children.

In so far as this is clearly a feminist issue, it does have wider dimensions and those are the ones it will be fought or lost on.

What's the stance on contraception?

(@Wheresmytaco brits living abroad for less than 15 years could vote in the Brexit referendum, as could commonwealth and Irish citizens in the UK. Malta and Gibraltar were included in the commonwealth vote).

In ireland, contraception is now freely available, there were government funded campaigns when I was in college urging people to use condoms as well as the pill, the morning after pill is freely accessible.

It's just abortion left.

If the majority of people believe that life starts at conception, how does that tally with available contraception that interferes with implantation? And why aren't there loud calls for women to be prosecuted for smoking during pregnancy or similar? Or maybe there are?

It is about controlling women's bodies though, if you believe that an embryo/foetus from conception has the same human rights as a born person. In order for that embryo/foetus to have those rights it requires you to remove rights from women, specifically bodily autonomy.

AppalachianWalzing has summed up the situation perfectly.

AW speaking to some pro life people it's clear to me that part of the objection to abortion is that pregnancy is women's comeuppance for being sluts and if we remove that 'punishment' then women will do something disgusting like enjoying sex for fun (rather than submitting to marital rape as is their destiny)

...Why should women get to decide on a huge moral question like that?
Womens bodies, womens lives, womens decision.

There are still women in England who cant get an abortion, because, for example, their doctor is a member of Life, and will obstruct any attempt for her to get one on the NHS

They can simply go to another doctor, or self refer to a clinic. It is no way comparable.

That's not as easy or straightforward as you make out @existentialmoment, but yes it is not as bad as other countries. Although you still have to ask permission of 2 doctors as if you're a naughty child rather than an adult making a decision about your own health/body.

It is easy and straightforward compared to what some of us need to do. It is not difficult to access abortion in England.

Abortion is still a criminal offence in England under certain circs, ie without 2 doctors signing off, and the doctors group people just the other week made a statement that they wanted it out of criminal considerations.

And of course the situation in NI is appalling, and our govt jumped into bed with the DUP without a second thought when they needed their back-up.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/22/abortion-decriminalise-crime-britain-childbirth-doctors

"Those sections mean that a woman who has a termination without getting the legal approval of two doctors – perhaps by buying abortion pills online – could be given a life sentence, as could anyone helping her."

That item is from 5 days ago.

There have also been repeated efforts to reduce the 24 week cut-off.

None of this is set, it can all be taken away, very easily. Look at what is happening in the USA, Poland, sure there are more.

Men, rightly, have no legal say in a woman's decisions during pregnancy, so IMO should not get a vote.

If however the referendum is to assess societal opinions on potential changes in the law then mens' opinions are relevant.

I'm a man. I would very much want to be able to vote in such a referendum, in favour of legalising abortion. It obviously doesn't affect me in a direct physical sense, but is obviously important to the bodily autonomy, mental and physical health of many people I care about deeply.

If however the referendum is to assess societal opinions on potential changes in the law then mens' opinions are relevant

No, its to change the constitution of the country.

Looking at the data here:

www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/poll-shows-public-support-for-abortion-is-cautious-and-conditional-1.2995696

It seems that more women than men think that abortion should not be legal in any circumstances. I presume you would all still be in favour of a women-only vote if that increased the chances of the 'wrong' result - as seems to be the case?

The current approach in law led to this:

dead woman kept on life support as pregnant

and reading it, it seems this is what triggered the referendum.

Longer piece here:

here

It is really grim, she was decomposing, and they kept her body going, to try and sustain this pregnancy, against the wishes of and in the face of the intense distress it was causing her husband and existing children.

There are other questions.

Women in Ireland still get abortions, if they can afford it, they come over here.
There are also pills available from the net.
Having it illegal does not actually stop it, and just means that women have expense, stress, and possibly a lack of medical support.

A quick google tells me that "Between January 1980 and December 2016, at least 170,216 women and girls travelled from the Republic of Ireland to access abortion services in another country."

So they don't actually want it to be really illegal do they, or they would perform pregnancy tests on all women leaving the country, or something.

@Queen

The right to travel to access an abortion actually had to be protected through (another) referendum in the early 90s after a horrific case known as the 'X case', where the courts tried to stop a 14 year old girl travelling to the UK after she became pregnant through rape.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland