Gender reassignment surgery... Would you then be happy with them in female spaces?

[TurquoiseChevrotain]

I don't have an issue with transgender individuals, etc.

However, I know there are feminism issues. Jus curious if a biological male has his penis removed, do you still have an issue?

And now I'm being insulted by being called a man.

How am I supposed to know how you identify?
I automatically assumed, from the way you wrote and the way you refuse to even consider some of the replies, and the way you talk over everybody, and act as if we're all beneath you, that you were male. Because that's how a lot of males act.
That's why I automatically assumed you were male.

My apologies for getting it wrong.

I'm not interested in continuing to have a conversation with people who use ridiculous arguments about trans people being rapists

No one said that applied to all or even most trans males. It 100% definitely applies to some. You're lying. And I don't think you're on this thread in good faith.

'I'm absolutely sick of seeing this shit on MN.'

I'm sick of being called a 'vagina bearer' or a 'person with a uterus' or 'cis' or anything other than what I am: a woman.

I think you've all own goaled yourselves enough.

Oh the irony! If you're doing activism on behalf of your trans friends, you're not making a very good job of it.

I'm sick of being called a 'vagina bearer' or a 'person with a uterus' or 'cis'

It's OK to insult us.

It's so enormously surprising that crowdo flounces as soon as she gets asked to justify why the feelings and comfort of trans males are more important than female rape victims and DV victims.

I've been sexually assaulted before by a woman. Does that mean you're not allowed in a changing room with me?
So, would you feel more comfortable/safe in the male changing room? If not, why is that?

What you seem to be not getting, perhaps purposely, perhaps not...is that changing rooms are segregated by SEX. If you do not think there should be sex segregation in any areas, that makes sense. Its a view I completely disagree with, but one I can make sense of. What makes no sense whatsoever, is to keep segregated areas and allow both sexes to use both....

Of course changing rooms and such are not the only issue. Hows about prisons? Or sports for example. Males have a clear biological advantage over females, that much is clear by checking up on speeds and such between the best rated in each sex.

Noticed you have called us all disgusting and flounced already though. But meh. Half had this written out before I noticed that and didn't want to chuck it.

I am sorry you were sexually assaulted by a female. I truly am. This is not an argument for allowing males into female areas though.

The women I feel great compassion for are those who have to share a prison cell with a man who has had his penis removed.

Not just males with their penis removed. Males with fully intact penises. AND as if that wasn't bad enough, males with fully intact penises who are in jail to begin with for raping females

And this is not scaremongering. Its happening. Currently.

Crowdo - perhaps you could answer two questions.

1. What do you believe makes someone a woman?

2. If that answer is "how they feel inside their head" how do we tell when they are telling the truth - i.e. how in legal terms do we draw up a test which distinguishes between those people who genuinely have that feeling within their heads (by which test, btw, I am not a woman, despite having been pregnant and given birth) and those who are merely claiming to have that feeling for their own nefarious reasons?

When someone lies about, say, bank fraud or burglary, there's a fact of the matter - the bank records, their own bank balance, the finger prints at the scene - which can be used to assess whether they're lying or not.

With a person in a male prison saying "but I feel like a woman inside" there is no way of distinguishing whether that person really does feel that way (leaving aside the whole issue of whether that feeling is rooted in some sort of neurological reality or is in fact a delusion) or whether they're lying about it. (And the professional body of psychiatrists who work with prisoners raised this as a concern in evidence submitted to Maria Miller's select committee - they thought that there was a real and statistically significant danger of a substantial number of men "identifying as women" either to get into prisons considered more comfortable, or to get access to a pool of literally captive female victims. Not trans people, before you cry "wah transphobic bigot, saying all transwomen are rapists", but men pretending to be trans). If self-identification goes through as a law, the only evidence to be adduced for someone's trans status will be what they say about the contents of their own head. You just have to take their word for it. And that's a lousy basis for legislation.

You cant reason with Crowdo, don't bother.

Also, if a woman gets surgery to add a penis, if she used it to rape someone, would it actually be sexual assault with penetration? As women cannot rape??

I have no doubt you're right, Pat, but I always bear in mind the advice that in reality you're talking to the lurkers. If you can politely ask sane and sensible questions, and the other person throws a hissy fit instead of attempting to answer, then you've won the argument in the eyes of the lurkers on the thread.

I very rarely say this but I honestly have no idea what you're going on about Crowdo.

FFS when will all you women learn that you are not as important as transwomen. So be nice. It doesn't matter if you have PTSD due to sexual assault, you accept that the nice woman with the penis bollock naked in front of you. You must also participate in standard locker room girls' talk, such as breast size and where to buy lingerie and of course compliment her on how gorgeous she is. Because us girls talk to each other like that in locker rooms and never about where to buy decent school uniforms or how you have 30 minutes to cook the dinner before you chauffeur your children about to sports activities all night then come back to do the ironing

Who on earth are these violent willy wavers some of MN are imagining?

The same violent willy-wavers that are the reason trans women give for not wanting to use the male toilets.

Who on earth are these violent willy wavers some of MN are imagining?

The same violent willy-wavers that are the reason trans women give for not wanting to use the male toilets.

Now that's what I call an Own Goal.
Crow, how do you explain that?

You say that male violence is exagerated,
But, you don't want to use the male toilets because there are, wait for it
Lots of Violent Males.

You've contradicted yourself so many times it's laughable.

Perhaps you are not the right spokesperson for 'The Cause'.

Frankly, I don't want to see anyone put in a position where they need psychiatric help be denied it, for whatever reason.

Except that is exactly what is happening.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to get any mental health support for gender dysphoria or in some cases, even impossible.

If you're a teenager or young adult suffering from crippling gender dysphoria these days you tend to be given two options; start transitioning or go away. It's very difficult now to access therapy that is neutral in it's approach to transitioning.

I've lost count of the amount of money I've spent over the past couple of years, how many therapists I've had to go through and how many miles I've had to travel just to find a therapist who was willing to be neutral in their approach and not start from the "but you're a woman!" point of view. Every other therapist I spoke to had the attitude of "well you don't really need to speak to me, you've taken hormones, so now you just need to have some surgery and everything will be okay!". Sorry but it doesn't work like that.

Nobody here thinks transwomen should be treated like freaks or that we're all rapists. Where are you getting this from?

To be fair to crowdo, she is only trying to protect what she sees as a marginalised and vulnerable group of people.

I think she assumed that we are coming from a place of hatred, and hadn't realised that this is a position most of us have reached over time and from our experience. I think it is naive (or brave) of her to expect women on the feminist section of a parenting website to forget biology and put men first.

I hope she comes back and reads what has actually been said on this thread, not what she thinks has been said. Because she is angry with us for no reason, we are not against trans people, we are just trying to maintain our boundaries.

Well said Curry. Such an excellent point about psych help not being offered.

IAmEatingACurry Am I right in thinking that issue is separate from the issue of cuts to services?
I know there are terrible waiting lists for counselling ATM, but its usually there.

I realise that there have been cuts to mental health support in general but I really don't think it's a coincidence that support for gender dysphoria was cut round about the same time trans activists started taking hold.

*around

Also, if a woman gets surgery to add a penis, if she used it to rape someone, would it actually be sexual assault with penetration? As women cannot rape??

It would be rape in Scotland. Rape is the insertion of person A's penis in person B's body. There is no reference to man or woman or sex or gender in relation to either the perpetrator or the victim. "Penis" includes a surgically constructed penis.

TurquoiseChevrotain

Also, if a woman gets surgery to add a penis, if she used it to rape someone, would it actually be sexual assault with penetration? As women cannot rape??

A microscopic percentage of women actually have phalloplasty. Have you seen what it looks like?

It's completely unfunctional. It can't get hard without an additional mechanism. Either a steel rod, or a pump.

It's a pointless question.

TurquoiseChevrotain

I'm interested in the reason for your opening post. Are you a transwoman? Do you, yourself, see a distinction between pre-op and post-op? (Whether you are trans or not).