Gender reassignment surgery... Would you then be happy with them in female spaces?

[TurquoiseChevrotain]

I don't have an issue with transgender individuals, etc.

However, I know there are feminism issues. Jus curious if a biological male has his penis removed, do you still have an issue?

Exactly. No males in women's spaces as far as possible (i.e. it depends on whether they "pass" and can sneak in under the radar. No compromise, the technical exemptions from EA to remain for women's spaces and to be more spaces where women are uncomfortable with men being there and more focussed on women.

Otherwise yes it is based on a false premise and is pressure to have genital surgery to be accepted. No.

*to include more spaces

Women definitely are not incomplete men. If anything, evolutionary biologists came to the conclusion that men are modified women. That is why they still have nipples - no evolutionary pressures to get rid of them.

Today 14:21 Crowdo

It's not that no one understands. It's that they disagree.

It's neither petty not small minded to have a debate about about this.

I really don't understand why when women say no, that it's suddenly up for question. There is a word for that.

@IAmEatingACurry understands only too well, contrary to your post, because she's a transwoman.

Being any gender does not exclude you from being horrible to and about other people.

There's no point having debates about who is this or that percentage of one of the other. Just be nice. If you find that challenging, look at yourself and the reasons why you choose to act that way, not at other people and what they are doing.

I'm absolutely sick of seeing this shit on MN.

Who decides who looks male and female? If someone looks female, but sounds male, what happens then? What if they pass from a distance, but not close up or in a group of women?

Well much as I wouldn't go into the mens (unless I really had to to find my child or something - and even then, I'd loudly announce myself), a transwoman shouldn't go in the ladies (dunno about the men and transmen - you'd have to ask men about that) - I shouldn't need to say that, it should be societally understood (as it has been in the past). An honour system used to work just fine.

Anyone who wants to violate those boundaries is just the kind of person who you probably don't want to be sharing a toilet (or prison cell) with.

Ok crowdo. You don't see any need for sex segregation any where. That's fine.

But plenty of people do. And talking about it is perfectly normal.

It's not an issue that is going to be solved with debate. None of us have any idea how it feels to be someone else, we have no idea if there are differences in the brain that we are currently scientifically unable to categorise, we cannot individually weigh up the sum of every person on earth's feelings and then make one decision that will suit everyone.

This debate is not constructive. It's an excuse, for many, to make hideous sweeping gleeful judgements. I don't care who goes in what box. I do care about barely concealed bigotry.

Of course the irony is that (speaking for myself personally), Curry is precisely the sort of transwoman I would feel perfectly comfortable sharing space with, because she understands that there are circumstances when biology matters. The trans identified individual who punched a 60 year old woman at speakers' corner last week, on the other hand, is precisely the sort of individual I wouldn't want to be next to in hospital. As the law currently stands, we can make such a distinction legally - because access to women's spaces depends on a gender reassignment certificate. If the law changes to allow for self-identification, then I have to put up with that violent individual from speakers' corner in hospital wards, prisons, communal shower rooms, sleeper berths, women's dormitories in youth hostels, rape crisis centres, shelters for women fleeing domestic violence. And I am not happy with that.

Curry - in the unlikely event we're ever on the Inverness sleeper together, I'd happily share a compartment with you!

It's not an issue that is going to be solved with debate.

Of course it can be. Laws are made by parliament and courts, and debated thoroughly in both arenas.

This debate is not constructive

You mean it's not going your way!

You can't change laws without there being some winners and losers. There needs to be some debate so that as many people are in agreement when the law is changed and this makes the law work.

If there is not widespread consent the law will not work.

Debate may not sound 'nice' but it is working through ideas to get things right.

If laws are brought in without widespread consent, then there will be no respect for that law, people will not abide by that law and the justice system will not be able to deal with that law.

If the law is badly drawn up then the law will not be enforceable.

This leads to a situation for everyone that is not nice, and much worse than a lack of fluffy words.

That is why there is supposed to be consultation and consensus.

Being any gender does not exclude you from being horrible to and about other people.

Of course not.

However gender is bollocks, none of us give a crap about gender as its known today and I think you may find that most feminists (and indeed, just...people) reject the entire notion of 'gender' alltogether as noone is simply a set of stereotypes, which is exactly what gender is!

We just think sex is more important...when it comes to maintaining spaces segregated by sex. This much should be obvious. None of these spaces are split due to feelings...its biology.

The people on this board are the most clued up I have ever seen on this trans narrative and what is being expected of females. What females are being asked to give up...its fairly insulting to see people make out they simply do not understand. Its pretty much the only space online, or in real life that these issues (which affect us all...not just trans people) can even be spoken about without discussion being shut down.

Its even funnier when your original 'rargh transphobes' type comment (14:21:54), was actually aimed...at a transwoman!

It's not an issue that is going to be solved with debate.

Why? Why is debate so scary?

None of us have any idea how it feels to be someone else,

Well..quite. But we are expected to believe a person can 'feel like' an entire other sex. Quite how is that? How can you feel like something you are not?

we have no idea if there are differences in the brain that we are currently scientifically unable to categorise
Its of course possible that brain differences between the sexes will eventually be found. As science currently stands though, no differences...
we cannot individually weigh up the sum of every person on earth's feelings and then make one decision that will suit everyone.

Which is quite why 'feelings' shouldn't come into the whole thing at all really. Hence, us stating that 'woman' is a biological reality, not a 'feeling' and that spaces segregated by sex, for reasons that are down to the differences between the sexes, should remain separated by sex, not a 'feeling'

crowdo
The problem is that there hasn't been any debate. Women have suddenly found that our language has been changed, our sex segregated facilities are being removed, children are being offered puberty blockers and if the gender identity bill goes through, then no woman will have the right to any sex segregated service - not a single sex hospital ward, right to have a woman administer a smear test, bra fitting, woman counsellor if we're raped. And as women have realised that because we have been quiet and accepting and not made a fuss, suddenly all the rights that have been fought for for so many years are being removed. So we want to debate and question and hold on to these hard fought for rights - but guess what, we're called transphobic when we challenge these changes and are threatened and followed and assaulted in order to stop us raising our concerns.
So when you pop up and say that this isn't going to be solved with debate - we can see that - it's being resolved with threats, no platforming, intimidation, assaults and silencing women!

So this MN thread is going to be taken into account when making parliamentary decisions?

I don't care what gender or categorisation anyone falls into. I don't take that into account when it comes to their opinion.

Of course the irony is that (speaking for myself personally), Curry is precisely the sort of transwoman I would feel perfectly comfortable sharing space with, because she understands that there are circumstances when biology matters.

Gotta agree with this too. Ditto for Miranda Yardley and their partner Helen.

And probably...most people who would be known as 'truscum' by transactivists now. Old school transsexual people. Those folk who are dysphoric and such.

NOT these ridiculous people who believe that penises are female, and that lesbians are transphobic for not sucking dick. I wouldn't want them within 100 feet of me tbh. I don't think they are 'freaks'. I think they are woman hating homophobic bigots themselves. Again, fairly ironically given how often they like to try and silence others with that word.

I don't care what gender or categorisation anyone falls into. I don't take that into account when it comes to their opinion.

Who is talking about denying these people an opinion?

This is about same sex spaces. And if people think we need them or not, and also where the line is drawn.

Do you think we need same sex spaces (refuges for females, for example) and areas of life (lets take sports for this one)? If not why not?

HornyTortoise speaks for many of us.

Women are not asking for this change. We are the ones it will affect.
Its easy to be casual about the risks other people face. If you've never had to use a DV shelter or been in a psychiatric ward you have no idea how other women live.

Ffs. Just because gender dysphoria exists doesn't mean we have to pander to it.

Anorexia exists but we don't feel the need to pussyfoot around a 4 stone person who is vainly trying to find a millimetre of skin to pinch, whilst bemoaning how far they are.

This debate is not constructive. It's an excuse, for many, to make hideous sweeping gleeful judgements. I don't care who goes in what box. I do care about barely concealed bigotry.

Good lord. There are people on this thread who are trans. It was a transwoman speaking at the feminist debate last Wednesday who was abused by transactivists.

Throwing around unsubstantiated accusations of bigotry has got us into this mess in the first place.

How would you personally envisage a 'constructive debate'? Anyone can talk here. And do. Mumsnet delete all personal attacks.

Talk!

*fat

Yes I would be happy for a person who has had full gender reassignment, to have access to female changing rooms and dorms, because having the full reassignment surgery shows that the person is fully comitted to being female and it also rules out any danger of someone identifying as female purely to gain access to areas where they can see females in a state of undress.

I don't believe all this 'female penis' stuff.
If you still have a penis and testicles you're still male.
You can't get any more male than a penis.

Male socialisation is dangerous, not male genitalia

Male genitalia can be pretty dangerous as well

Just be nice ladies..... smile when men set records in women's sports that no real women will have a chance of ever achieving. Smile when a bearded man with a penis follows you into the ladies, or the changing rooms at your local gym. Just smile and be nice.

I have had to use both a dv shelter and a psychiatric ward, so I know exactly what opening up spaces will mean.

Having an unbiased, kindly meant discussion on the subject is not the issue. You only have to read through a few of these threads to see the bubbling hatred coming through.

Frankly, I don't want to see anyone put in a position where they need psychiatric help be denied it, for whatever reason. I think it would be very cruel of me personally to say that other people have to suffer for my small mindedness. I know trans people and I wouldn't deny the one of them the shelter of coming into my space if they needed that to feel comfortable. I would actively welcome them. Who on earth are these violent willy wavers some of MN are imagining?