Gender reassignment surgery... Would you then be happy with them in female spaces?

[TurquoiseChevrotain]

I don't have an issue with transgender individuals, etc.

However, I know there are feminism issues. Jus curious if a biological male has his penis removed, do you still have an issue?

What an amazingly misogynistic term 'vagina-bearer' is! I'm female because (really interesting mosaicism and human chimeras aside) every cell in my body is, not just because I happen to possess a "penis sheath" FFS.................
Sorry Crowdo (if female) feels so ashamed of their own biological sex.

I'm actually shocked

Oh give it a rest. Just stop 🙄

The irony is that if anyone expected adult humans males to be nice and kind and look out for everyone around them, we wouldn't need sex segregated facilities.

The irony is that if anyone expected adult humans males to be nice and kind and look out for everyone around them, we wouldn't need sex segregated facilities.

This.

As long as there are no urinals.
Urinals don't belong in Women's toilets, because women don't have a penis.
There's no need.

I've been sexually assaulted before by a woman. Does that mean you're not allowed in a changing room with me?

And that's where I lose interest. Achingly predictable.

I consider it my role to keep everyone around me happy and safe. As a human being, not as a vagina bearer.

Problem with this is though, that most of us want those around us to be safe. But when so much violence, and nearly all sexual violence is committed by one of the sexes against the other sex, surely its entirely plausible that the weaker sex (by biology, not buying into stereotypes, just males tend to be much stronger and able to overpower females...and do so on an astonishingly depressing basis) need areas of life away from the dominating sex.

Obviously male people should be entitled to privacy from female people also. But its not quite as pressing a matter as on the whole, females are not a danger to males on anywhere near a scale as vice versa.

So in your lovely world where we try to keep everyone safe, where does the safety of female people fit? Or does that not matter as much? As the safety of females from males does not seem to be crossing your mind very much in this particular argument, thats all. I am sure you do think female people should also be safe. I am just having a hard time working out how you think that to solve male people being scared of other male people, we should throw male people in with female people. How does that solution keep everyone safe? It really doesn't, at all. But this seems to be not thought of...why?

The irony is that if anyone expected adult humans males to be nice and kind and look out for everyone around them, we wouldn't need sex segregated facilities.

Or prisons, or courts, or laws. We could just get along nicely together

Nobody would have competing interests at all - not going to happen in this world.

Oh Crowdo. I don't think there's a single logical, rational, reasonable argument in the world that could convince you you've got this all wrong, no matter how compassionately expressed, because you're not operating from a place of reason. It doesn't matter what anyone on here says, you're determined to believe we're all a bunch of vile bigots who just hate trans people and wish them harm.

Even when one of the people you disagree with is herself a transwoman, you are determined to categorise her voice as petty and small minded because she doesn't think like you think she should.

I for one am always very glad to read Curry's posts as they serve as a soothing and reassuring antidote to the vitriol and delusion that characterises most of the TRA narrative. Please try and understand, Crowdo, that most of us on here have no argument with your average transwoman; what we are dead against is the ideology of Trans Rights Activists that is misogynist, homophobic (especially lesbophobic) and abusive to children. If you are happy to support those things then you haven't got a moral leg to stand on.

You are happy to share your spaces with your TW friends: good. But that is not the point here. And you literally cannot see what is happening in front of you because you have got your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears.

Over the last few days there have been quite a few women posting on MN saying that up till now they had been committed trans allies, arguing exactly as you are now doing, slating any dissenters as vile, evil bigots etc. And now the scales have fallen from their eyes and suddenly they SEE what the problem is here. Maybe one day you'll get there.

In the meantime I have no doubt you'll continue to froth and raise your blood pressure with all the vigour of the most committed Daily Mail reader. There is a bigot on this thread, most assuredly, just not who you think it is.

"So in your lovely world where we try to keep everyone safe, where does the safety of female people fit?"

They should do as they are told. Or will be called outrageous bigots. Nice ethical code right there.

crowdo and on that basis would you be happy if Ian Huntley was moved to a women's prison because he's decided he's now Lian?
Do you really think that's safe for the women prisoners who are possibly the most vulnerable women in our society??
Bearing in mind there is already a violent rapist who has been moved to a women's prison because he is transgender.

Can I ask if anyone knows who these trans women with intact penises (95% of the transwoman population according to recent statistics) actually date? Do they date straight men? Because surely those straight men get a shock when presented with a penis?

"Just be nice."

No. I will not be "nice". My rights are my rights, and my boundaries are my boundaries. If I say no to the violation of my boundaries, and that is perceived as me not being "nice", then any person who thinks I should accommodate them by allowing my boundaries and rights to be trodden all over really needs to examine and modify their own sense of entitlement, and not try to guilt me via traditional female socialisation into capitulating.

I'm not interested in continuing to have a conversation with people who use ridiculous arguments about trans people being rapists or with people who call my mentioning my own experience of being violently assaulted by a woman as 'predictable'.

Some of you are truly fucking gross

See, it's frustrating to have other women say "yep, I'm ok with it"(having a male in my changing room as long as he hasn't got a penis)" WITHOUT them extending their thinking to: "however I know that many women are profoundly unhappy with them being lumped in with male people, regardless of pre/post op penis status, so I CANNOT advocate this be enforced upon other women."

If you're OK with it, bravo, lobby for a third space where transwomen and likeminded women can share. It'll be full of transwomen and all the women who are OK to share with them. Just leave SEX segregated spaces alone and don't ring them crashing down for others on your way out. Gender neutral for you, sex segregated for us.

Understand that you ought not to throw other women under the bus because you KNOW they will be adversely affected.

Crowdo isn't interested in other's opinions.
Only those that align with his own.

The women I feel great compassion for are those who have to share a prison cell with a man who has had his penis removed. Or share a rape support group with a man , or have an intimate medical examination. Or be beaten in a sport after spending years of their life training .

Women in prison are some of the most vulnerable in our society. Almost all have had suffered neglect and abuse in childhood and addictions, mental health problems , homelessness and violence in adulthood. They have been prostituted and raped by men and now you expect them to share a prison cell and shower with one. Because, you know, of his feelz.

Yes, that's fair and compassionate. These women's feelings and safely don't matter do they? Not compared to men's.

So It's not really about me and my middle class need to show how 'right on' I am about sharing the office loo with Robert from the third floor who now identified as female. Or even Richard who is also still a man but has no male genitals.

The majority of trans activists are rapists? Bloody hell. You really believe that bollocks?

You said 'violent willy wavers'. TAs regularly show how violent they are, and these are the people who believe penises are female and so on. these are the people pushing for 'self-identification' laws.

Transactivists are the very same people who planned violence against female people, and then carried it out fairly recently. A 60 year old female was punched in the face by a bunch of males. what was her crime? Wanting to discuss planned legislation that will take womens rights back years. At the same event, transactivists attacked a transwoman.

In a nutshell^ With proof also...so you know we aren't making it up. As of course thats the next logical step in your argument.

Maybe worth watching a few videos on that channel. Magdalen is a lesbian woman who was removed from the LGBT group at her uni for saying she would not consider a male as a sexual partner. And she does a fantastic job of showing how the transactivists line, is deeply homophobic.

So yeah.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3036489-Woman-attacked-by-transactivists-at-speakers-corner-part-deux?pg=1

Crowdo - some people are just not nice, no matter what they identify as. Being trans will not turn bad people into nice ones. It would be good for everyone if it did. But it just does not happen.

Everyone who is ok with gender neutral spaces is welcome to use them. No one is trying to stop you.
You dont have the right to impose them on women.

And now I'm being insulted by being called a man.

I think you've all own goaled yourselves enough. I'm not reading another word of this vile shit.

Some of you are truly fucking gross .

I'm not reading another word of this vile shit.

Such rude words.

I had a tour around a women-only club recently. There was a woman also on the tour who very clearly identified as a man. I commented to my friend that it took some cojones to not only identify as a man, but to identity as a fat, badly dressed, 50-something, rather unhygienic man with a cheap pinstripe suit and considerable dandruff as a style statement. And further cojones to think it was OK to join tour around an all women's club in the circumstances, not engage with the other people in a friendly inclusive way, slam doors in people's faces, and not think other people might be a bit put out at your behaviour, because you had nailed the art of being an inconsiderate middle-aged man so completely.

Because that's what it comes down to, doesn't it? Respecting the feelings of others, and not imposing your body odour and personal space invasion on them just because you feel you should have the right. This applies to both genders IMHO.

I am still puzzled why this person wanted to join an all-women's club whilst identifying as male. I think by the end I was thinking the whole single gender thing was completely anachronistic, actually.

It's only the Transactivists I see sinking to using vile language and swearing at people. I've never seen this from the women arguing for biology.