Gender reassignment surgery... Would you then be happy with them in female spaces?

[TurquoiseChevrotain]

I don't have an issue with transgender individuals, etc.

However, I know there are feminism issues. Jus curious if a biological male has his penis removed, do you still have an issue?

No I wouldn't accept them as a female.

Chopping bits off, taking hormones and plastic surgery does not make you a woman.

It is biologically impossible to change gender/sex.

However, I'm perfectly happy to accept them living as their interpretation of what a woman is.

If they were in a bad car crash and all that was left was bits of flesh, a DNA test would show them as male, and that is what they are, and always will be.

@Datun shelters? Hostels? There are lots of places.

A woman isn't just a man without a penis.

I absolutely believe that people should be able to live their lives however they wish to present without discrimination. This is why we need to fight for natal males to be safe while using male toilets and presenting as a woman; not to force everyone to hide out in the female toilets.

Of course some people would be absolutely fine to share toilets etc with be they male, female, intersex, trans, whatever but there are biological reasons that they have been segregated; periods mainly I suppose.

Sports, health, scholarships are a whole different matter and should absolutely be about birth sex rather than gender.

Today 11:19 TurquoiseChevrotain

@Datun shelters? Hostels? There are lots of places.

Sorry, can you clarify that? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

@Datun the examples are in response to your querying the relevance of dorms. Dorms are not just dormitories in schools but sleeping accommodation in halls of residence hostels etc.

No I wouldn't be comfortable with post-op transwomen in women's spaces. The lack of a penis doesn't make them any less likely to be violent. And how would you determine? Its quite unethical to have to ask people about their genitals to allow them into a certain space. They will still look male, they will still be intimidating to a vulnerable woman. The lack of penis doesn't make them a woman, it doesn't make them any less male.
Theres also the issue that it might push people towards surgery, and I don't think that we really should encourage gender reassignment surgery on people who are potentially vulnerable, i believe that a lot of autistic people can believe they are transgender for example and it could push people towards surgery. To me its quite unethical to do that. Surgery should be a very last resort. It also affirms the issue that a surgically created hole is in fact a vagina, when it isn't.
I always think its interesting that in these cases its women who have to let transwomen in, no one has actually targeted the men who are beating up transwomen, I dont actually think I've seen one article asking men to stop beating up transwomen. It might help the case of transwomen if they targeted the men who make women feel unsafe in public toilets, but instead we just have to accept it.

@charliethebear what if they didn't look male? There are lots of trams people who had puberty blockers and had surgery later on in life.

I wouldn't mind a bit.

@Datun the examples are in response to your querying the relevance of dorms. Dorms are not just dormitories in schools but sleeping accommodation in halls of residence hostels etc.

Oh, okay sorry. I was thinking of boarding school. I didn't know they were called dormitories elsewhere.

Are there lots of universities with more than one person per bedroom? I thought most units these days were single occupancy.

Hostels. Yes, I know about those. Can usually choose between mixed sex or single sex.

Today 11:58 TurquoiseChevrotain

what if they didn't look male? There are lots of trams people who had puberty blockers and had surgery later on in life.

Personally, this isn't a case of minding or not minding. It's a case of not knowing.

I'm sure transwomen have been sharing bathrooms with us for decades. With no problem.

But that is a courtesy. Not a right.

My thoughts are that if you need a name for the space, ie to register or whatnot, then it must be female only. Like refuges, sport, prisons, scholarships. I'd be less specific about loos and changing rooms, although i certainly wouldn't want to be forced to endure a "female penis" in open view. So i dunno...

Gender dysphoria is of course real. Nobody has said it isn't.

However just because you think you are something or want to be something does not mean that you are that thing.

Transwomen are male. Transmen are female. I would say that everybody knows this but most people are just too polite or scared of backlash to say it.

I get the feeling though that some transpeople talk about 'just wanting a pee in safety' but that actually it's more about being validated in their delusion of being female and wanting everyone else to agree they are - and would therefore resist the neutral or safe male loo option.

I would say that's true. That's why when someone suggests that we should have more unisex toilets as a way of resolving this they are often shot down.

There is nothing unsafe about using an enclosed unisex toilet but transactivists still don't want them because (just like everything else it seems) it's 'transphobic' or something.

TurquoiseChevrotain
Who decides who looks male and female? If someone looks female, but sounds male, what happens then? What if they pass from a distance, but not close up or in a group of women?

I'm not Ok with this. I hope that when the worst of this insanity is over, we end up with a situation where women are recognised for what we ARE, and trans people have a solution that meets their needs without imposing upon women.

A post operative person who has had their penis amputated is no closer to being a woman than a person with intact male genitalia.

Women are not "like men but without dicks". We are not men-with-modifications. We already exist AS something.

I have my sex in common with other women. I have nothing in common with a M2T. We have neither sex nor gender in common. There is no justification for them breaching my boundaries.

I know its pretty much splitting hairs at this stage but I really do not like how its termed 'gender dysphoria'

As I feel a lot of where we all went wrong was the conflating of the words sex and gender

And 'sex dysphoria' would surely be more accurate. I am fairly sure transsexual people would like the distinction made in general too...as I dare bet most transsexual people, would like to be firmly distinguished from the 'female penis' shouty types who call them 'truscum' for daring to have dysphoria to start with :S

@BigDeskBob good point

I think some of the conflation of sex and gender is deliberate.

I was down the rabbit hole reading some comments on a Guardian article and some one was saying that sex and gender is a social construct and that sex and gender are synonyms. I would say that the person saying this was not in any state of confusion but wily, streetwise and well versed in Guardian commenting.

Obviously, they are synonyms in a wider everyday context but when you are discussing the nitty gritty of gender/sex politics there is a wide difference - that is why the two different words exist.

Otherwise, it is just people who do not like saying 'sex' because it sounds a bit like...............

@IAmEatingACurry

Actually, I suspect most people don't have a vested opinion in the lives and opinions of other people. They most likely don't give a shit what other people think of themselves. It's really only on MN that you get this overbearing need to destroy something you are too petty and small minded to understand.

Woman is not a costume.....

I am really concerned that we reject this idea that men without penises are women, for a number of reasons, grouped around these two basic principles.

1. Women aren't incomplete men. This Aristotelian view is deep in our culture and must be resisted.
2. It's unethical to create social conditions of entry based on body modification. This is no better than FGM! It's wrong to pressure people in this way.

Totally agree with point two. It should in no way be encouraged that somebody experience genital surgery to have their decisions about themselves respected.

And those pictures are deliberately chosen to present a biased view of male to female transitions. I have friends you wouldn't know the difference with. I have friends who have had the surgery and I have friends who are only starting out. It makes me very upset to read nasty comments on MN making out that these dear, lovely, and kind people should be treated like freaks.

Nobody is suggesting they are freaks. Neither are they women.

You've only got to scroll through a few comments on MN about them to see the vitriol.

Who cares about categorisations, if it makes people treat others like shit?