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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux

895 replies

BeyondNoone · 18/09/2017 00:16

Here's the link to thread one
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3033126-London-meeting-to-discuss-Gender-Identity-attacked-by-transactivists

I'm just going to sleep, if someone else can add the news links for me please? Thanks :)

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21
cuirderussie · 22/09/2017 18:30

The cognitive dissonance is amazing. I was piled on by transactivists and their libfem allies in an online discussion and I kept being told I was "spouting hate" and full of rage and bigotry. But I was very calm and factual and careful not to personally attack anyone. They were the ones calling me a fucking TERF bitch and an old bag who should fuck off and deleting, blocking and banning me. The MTTs they were fawning over were so painfully obviously AGPs as well, it was cringeworthy to see how much they were getting off on it.

FactsAreNotMean · 22/09/2017 18:51

Same convo Quentin - that was one of the other posters who was also trying to talk some sense!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/09/2017 20:48

It's almost as if the whole thing is down to a very deep-seated misogyny

Yes, right from the very start when I first heard about this nonsense I thought this, in relation to the TRAs anyway. I've also been told that I'm whorephobic for supporting women escaping prostitution. I think they are simply first cousins of the MRAs, although as I've said above many don't want sexual access to our bodies because they are attracted to men. But there is something there that really, really makes them hate us, especially if we don't fawn all over them.

MrsKnightley · 22/09/2017 20:53

Banning Uber in London has been declared, according to DS (who has spat out the Koolaid) transphobic.

What next?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/09/2017 21:00

Did you ask why exactly?

WitchBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe · 22/09/2017 21:35

Thanks for the link Betsy

MrsKnightley · 22/09/2017 21:36

Trans people use Uber to feel safe as Uber are pro-trans??????

No idea really.

BlackForestCake · 22/09/2017 23:56

The eerie similarity between TRA rhetoric and behaviour and the rhetoric and behaviour of common or garden misogynists does make me think there is some sort of organised infiltration.

I checked out a “men’s rights” forum to see what they were saying about the trans stuff. Of course, mostly they are too conservative to ever swallow the “trans women are women” nonsense. But I did see more than one poster happy that “someone was taking on feminism”.

busyboysmum · 22/09/2017 23:59

I've asked this before but never got an answer. Who do trans women date? As 95% of them currently retain their penis I can't see many heterosexual men being very keen on that.

Gingernaut · 23/09/2017 00:05

Women mainly.

Men have this habit of reacting badly when they find out that a 'girl' has a 'lady dick'.

They tend not to date each other and most of them aren't interested in men.

busyboysmum · 23/09/2017 00:07

So they're even more clearly just men. I'd love to ask some of these celebrity endorsers if they believe transwoman are real women then ask if they would date one. Complete with lady penis ffs

YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/09/2017 00:34

I've asked this before but never got an answer. Who do trans women date? As 95% of them currently retain their penis I can't see many heterosexual men being very keen on that

I think it depends on the typology of transwoman. Remember some just identify as female or 'trans' or 'queer'. They don't do any bodily modification (although I note they have a thing about hair) and some transition full and there are multiple categories in-between. Not all are interested in dating. Some are sexually fluid and will date each other. Some who present as female want to date guys and others who present as male are same-sex orientated (I think it is this lot who call the transitioners 'tru scum'). But there is a definite category who want to date women.

abitoflight · 23/09/2017 02:12

(Please could whoever it was repost the picture of Muslim woman saying why she needed women only bathrooms
I've searched thread and twitter etc
I'll screenshot next time

Tsundoku · 23/09/2017 06:43

There is a definite category who want to date women.

This category is where I find the stated expectations, aspirations and self-identification often seem distinctly male. As is the outrage that lesbians won't play along (as well as the aggressive imagery of the 'cotton ceiling').

This from a trans woman's blog, about dating immediately after transition and not wanting a long-term relationship at that point: 'I needed to sow my wild oats, my girl oats. Life was all new. Being an attractive female changes the game. I chased after cis women, thinking that they were the prize. They were what I still wanted. In my mind, I thought, I look good, I can blend in. I think I can get myself a cis women again.'

To me, the entire lexis of this is unselfconsciously male. Pursuit, entitlement, attainment. How often do you hear a woman talking about sowing her wild oats, 'the game', chasing men, a particular type of man as a prize, or assessing her ability to 'get' an example of that prized type?

It's like watching a TV show where you can tell male writers have produced dialogue for female characters, and it's so frustratingly inauthentic you want to yell: women don't talk like that! There's not homogoneous way women do talk, there's no separate female dialect you can learn, but when something rings false it's obvious, like any situation where people try to speak as/for someone else.

This is one of the things which really troubles me about the trans movement's direction: people who are still socially male demanding full, unquestionable, legal and social identification as being female.

(That, and claiming to be in a position of oppression so extreme that it's an act of self-defence to punch a woman and shut down all debate...)

Datun · 23/09/2017 07:33

But there is a definite category who want to date women.

But only if you define women as a biological sex. The ones who want to date women go after lesbians. Because contrary to what they say, their attraction is based on sex. (As are most peoples).

They say they are women, they say they only want to date women. But they won't date each other.

Dating websites for this type will often say 'no trans' in the profile.

They demand other people view them as women, but they don't view eachother that way.

Dating straight women won't work. Because straight women don't go for women. If they attracted a straight woman, it would invalidate their gender identity.

AskBasil · 23/09/2017 08:05

". I'd love to ask some of these celebrity endorsers if they believe transwoman are real women then ask if they would date one. Complete with lady penis "

I'd like to ask them the definition of the word woman.,

None of them can give you one. And yet for centuries, it has been a very basic word with an exact equivalent in every single language ever spoken by human beings. Now apparently it means something else, but no-one can tell us what.

busyboysmum · 23/09/2017 08:30

This is the Muslim woman for the poster who asked.

Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux
TheWeeWitch · 23/09/2017 08:50

Thread here with today’s excellent next instalment from Janice Turner -

I am Janice Turner's No 1 fan - another excellent article
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3041152-i-am-janice-turner-s-no-1-fan-another-excellent-articlewww.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3041152-i-am-janice-turner-s-no-1-fan-another-excellent-article" target="_blank">http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens<a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3041152-i-am-janice-turner-s-no-1-fan-another-excellent-articlewww.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3041152-i-am-janice-turner-s-no-1-fan-another-excellent-article" target="blank">rights/3041152-i-am-janice-turner-s-no-1-fan-another-excellent-articlewww.mumsnet.com/Talk/womenss<a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3041152-i-am-janice-turner-s-no-1-fan-another-excellent-articlewww.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3041152-i-am-janice-turner-s-no-1-fan-another-excellent-article" target="_blank">rights/3041152-i-am-janice-turner-s-no-1-fan-another-excellent-article

BetsyM00 · 23/09/2017 08:58

YetAnotherSpartacus Trans people are very much 'TERFs' in their dating preferences. See transwidow.wordpress.com/2017/06/12/survey-says-trans-people-not-attracted-to-trans-people/

Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux
YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/09/2017 09:08

I think we are falling into a mistake by thinking this is all about sex and attraction. For many on the activist left it really isn't. I do honestly think that many support trans causes because they hate women and the company of MRAs otherwise offends them or they don't fit in or they want to keep their hip image. Remember many of these are not transitioners - they are themselves 'gender fluid' or 'trans' (without specifying) or simply 'queer'.

The survey above was interesting. It's a small sample and it is not clear who they actually asked - but there was an equal number preferring bio men and women (and few preferring 'trans' people who actually picked a wannabe gender).

Rumandraisin1 · 23/09/2017 11:16

Dating straight women won't work. Because straight women don't go for women. If they attracted a straight woman, it would invalidate their gender identity.

That's true of most - although Alex Drummond dated straight women and claimed that he was able to draw out their inner lesbian desires. I can't find the original article that focused on that but it's mentioned here:

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h?utm_term=.gcEkEQB4Z#.xpVPmoZzQ

"I've been in a long-term committed relationship for a long time now so I'm spoken for, but certainly I draw out the inner lesbian in women! "

Is he genuinely deluded enough to think that straight women who have sex with a fully male-bodied individual (no surgery, no hormones, penis, beard etc) are attracted to him because he unleashes their secret lesbian desires?

Unfortunately though, yes, many transwomen identify as lesbians and believe that lesbians should have sex with them and their 'female penis' (ie break through the "cotton ceiling" of women's underwear which oppresses them so by denying them their rights to women's bodies). I've known maybe 20 to 25 transwomen and they have all identified as lesbians - I'm probably getting a slightly skewed view because I am lesbian and go to (or used to go to) lesbian-only groups and obviously that's where I meet most of the 'transwomen' I know.

They are not all predatory, entitled individuals but there has been a definite shift in recent years. We have lived alongside transsexual ''women' peacefully for as long as I can remember but there's a very different group coming through now.

Italiangreyhound · 23/09/2017 11:41

Rumandraisin1 .aunt you can answer something for me, don't answer if it is not appropriate!

How does any male (or female) put women on the position that there is Thr expectation that they must 'date' or 've sexually active? I've been with ny husband for 20 years so not really awatr of the daring scene now.

But when I was dating there would be a progression either from a date to some form of intimacy (potentially quite far down Thr line); or at least of a 'getting off together' scenario. So amy make (I'm straight) who came across my path and I did not feel an attraction to would not get to Thr kissing or dating stage with.

I certainly never needed to say it's your beard/big muscles or pot belly that are putting me off! I just avoided physical contact with men with beards/muscles and pot bellies!

Do lesbians feel the need to tell trans women 'it's the fact you are male' or can they just say 'I'm not untreated'.

Italiangreyhound · 23/09/2017 11:42

aunt!! I meant to say I wonder can you

SmartiesHaveTheAnswer · 23/09/2017 11:45

I'm still here.
I'm still learning.

Every time I read these threads and research the articles, I come back to the same question:

Why? Why has a minority group of TA's grabbed so much political attention? Who is behind this drive (aside from these extremists)? Why has this been silenced so that it's fallen under the radar of the general
Public? Who has sanctioned this silence? Why, when there was an act of violence against a woman last week perpetrated by masked cowards has the small amount of media attention made it all about the 'wimmin' having a scuffle'?
It feels so sinister?

busyboysmum · 23/09/2017 11:47

I would think that if you're a lesbian you would be attracted to the physical softness of other women and men are not soft in the same way. Their bodies have a different muscalature. So a trans woman wouldn't be soft in the way a biological woman would be soft. That's why I've never been attracted to women because I like the muscular hardness of men. Sounds strange I know but I can't explain it any other way. Plus of course if you're a lesbian I'm sure the presence of a penis is a bit of a non starter in the first place. As would lack of a penis be for me as a heterosexual woman.

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