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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux

895 replies

BeyondNoone · 18/09/2017 00:16

Here's the link to thread one
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3033126-London-meeting-to-discuss-Gender-Identity-attacked-by-transactivists

I'm just going to sleep, if someone else can add the news links for me please? Thanks :)

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JAPAB · 22/09/2017 13:12

Datun, everyone thinks their side on an issue is the right one. Of course you know that those opposing the rights some trans people want are right and justified in their view, whereas those who opposed gay rights are not and not.

irrespective of who in any objective sense is right, it is not surprising that people who want a particular set of rights/recognitions are not going to see a bunch of people sitting around "discussing stuff" - ie why they shouldn't have these rights/recognitions, as some sort of mere unthreatening triviality that it is bewildering that anyone would strongly object to.

nauticant · 22/09/2017 13:12

I don't think it is that unexpected that homosexuals and their allies will not see them as trivialities

Maybe JAPAB is right and rather than discussing a woman being physically attacked by transactivists for wanting to discuss gender we should discuss a different topic instead.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 22/09/2017 13:25

This event all sounds very one-sided. You'd think someone would have invited trans organisations like Stonewall to come and give their viewpoint.

Oh, hang on...

Natsku · 22/09/2017 13:29

UK parliament twitter account is tweeting about how the gender recognition account changed someone's life - good opportunity to bring up how the changes will change our lives?

twitter.com/UKParliament/status/911184565414137856

HornyTortoise · 22/09/2017 13:30

I am openly 'gender critical' these days, probably about as much as they come, but I was once a good little trans ally. And still would be, if they were asking for their own rights in some way (maybe campaigning for 'gender neutral' spaces, as an example) I would fight alongside them gladly.

But thats not whats being asked. At all. Whats being asked is that the rights of females are eroded.

Also in reality it doesn't make any sense whatsoever as, transwomen want into female spaces as the male spaces are unsafe. I do understand that. I understand gender non-conforming males being scared of toxic masculinity. BUT, this self identification idea that transactivists are so intent on getting made into law...would mean these very same males that transwomen are scared of, could just waltz into the female areas that transwomen are using to avoid them. So the end result is simply, male areas remain the same, but female areas are now considerably more unsafe too. I genuinely do not get how anyone cannot see the issues with this...

Datun · 22/09/2017 13:35

JAPAB

You're being obtuse if you think they are two sides of the same coin.

Just because one side want something and the other side doesn't, doesn't mean it can't be objectively analysed.

The rights being discussed that transpeople want are nothing to do with being trans. They're to do with women.

No one is taking anything from them or denying them anything.

It is proposed that they take something from women.

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of replacing one set of legislation with another, that makes the first legislation meaningless.

Terrylene · 22/09/2017 13:49

That Parliament UK is really commercial Government Lite isn't it? Confused [not impressed]

Weddings, get your cream tea hear........... it is like the National Trust or something.

HornyTortoise · 22/09/2017 13:54

The only analogy I can make with the gay marriage thing is if gay people, rather than wanting the right to be married themselves, were demanding (aggressively) that every person who is already married had their marriages removed from all records, and were expected to get married again.

Can't really compare apples with oranges in this way though

HornyTortoise · 22/09/2017 13:55

Infact a better one, is that gay people were demanding that all marriages were now non existent (like sex based protections will be with this) and that straight couples now HAD to get a civil partnership instead..and marriages no longer exist at all.

MissHavishamsleftdaffodil · 22/09/2017 13:56

Better not to rise to habitual derailers.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/09/2017 13:58

There is more hatred of women expressed by TRAs even though as far as I know no woman has ever attacked anyone in that community than there ever was (or is) of nasty, violent men whose idea of a fun night out is to bash a gay or trans man.

I've said for a while here that I think that for many TRAs the whole trans thing is an excuse for a socially sanctioned outlet for misogyny and calling for actual violence against women, but it is always the younger, 'queer' activists who I have had in mind, not the older AGPs.

nauticant · 22/09/2017 14:03

To be honest HornyTortoise I'd see the analogy as being that gay people insist that gay marriage is the only valid marriage and straight people either have to have their marriages dissolved or to substitute into the marriage someone of the same sex instead of their partner.

In fact, the more you think about this abstract world, the less you worry about women being hit in the face. Result!

Terrylene · 22/09/2017 14:39

To me it is more like abolishing marriage as we know it and giving one person in a relationship (or not) the legal right to declare themselves married to another person and all the legal framework that goes with it.

Terrylene · 22/09/2017 14:41

Otherwise, I so no parallels with the gay marriage bill whatsoever.

Lancelottie · 22/09/2017 14:56

I look forward to self-identification replacing any form of proof for other legally protected areas. DS would like not to have to jump through hoops to 'prove' his disability, and I would quite like to be young enough for half-price bus fares and better savings rates.

Rumandraisin1 · 22/09/2017 15:00

I followed the gay marriage debate very closely, both in the mainstream media and the gay press, wrote to my MP in favour of it etc.

Besides the issues being very different, the way it was treated was nothing like this. Every time the BBC discussed it they had representatives of both sides given equal time, there was loads in the media about the views of those opposing it. There was no silencing, no beating up women in the streets to prevent a debate and, as someone who was active in the LGBT community both on and offline, while people disliked them and their views I never saw anything like the vitriolic hatred, advocacy of rape and mass murder that is directed towards anyone - or at least any woman - who disagrees with the trans agenda.

JAPAB · 22/09/2017 15:51

Datun No one is taking anything from them or denying them anything.

Some of them might disagree when they are being denied access to this that or the other, or are being denied even being considered as this that or the other.

HornyTortoise The only analogy I can make with the gay marriage thing is if gay people, rather than wanting the right to be married themselves, were demanding (aggressively) that every person who is already married had their marriages removed from all records, and were expected to get married again.

The analogy is about understanding what people might consider a threat to their group and the subsequent reactions to this.

When someone expresses puzzlement at the aggression and attempts to silence "a bunch of women sitting around discussing stuff" the first point is that if this "stuff" involved arguing against the rights/recognitions that the group wants, then to this group that is a threat. And such discussions can form the backdrop to denials at a legal level.

Then to further help understand people's motives and actions, consider the way some homosexuals/allies responded to the "homophobes" who were just sitting around "discussing stuff". Being vociferous to them, insulting them, trying to silence them.

This might help depuzzle you as to why some peopel act the way they do.

Of course, if you get hung up on whether you personally agree or disagree with the minority group in question's aims, and start making arguments for why in one case they were justified and in the other, not OK, then you are going to miss the point and may well continue scratching your head in puzzlement as to why some trans people will react aggressively and strongly to a mere trivial discussion of "stuff".

Italiangreyhound · 22/09/2017 15:59

HornyTortoise post at 13.50, I completely agree with you. I used to be an ally to transsexuals, still am, but just so tired now of the whole trans gender thing and the obsession with making us all agree with them. The emperors new clothes on speed!

Italiangreyhound · 22/09/2017 16:04

"This might help depuzzle you as to why some peopel act the way they do."

For the record we are not all always puzzled by the way some people (mostly men) behave. Lots of people (well, lots of men) do lots of things I cannot fathom on an intellectual or emotional level but I know enough about the way society attempts to continually control and oppress women not to really be puzzled by some of the stuff we are seeing.

nauticant · 22/09/2017 16:17

Yes, a man hitting a woman in the face isn't that puzzling. It will be because he believes he is entitled to be violent to the woman.

hackmum · 22/09/2017 16:30

They don't even get this angry at real fascists, or racists, or any number of deplorable people who might be worthy of this kind of hatred. Neither do they get angry, it seems, at the perpetrators of actual violence against trans people, who are all male.

It's almost as if the whole thing is down to a very deep-seated misogyny.

PricklyBall · 22/09/2017 16:42

"Neither do they get angry, it seems, at the perpetrators of actual violence against trans people, who are all male."

In fact, they do this deflection of blame so effectively that their supporters are completely taken in. I read an account by one former trans-ally who'd "lost her faith" when the internal contradictions became too much to handle, who said that it was only later that she'd realised the violence against transwomen was being carried out by violent men. Back when she'd been a "my feminism will centre transwomen or it will be nothing" advocate, she'd genuinely believed "transwomen suffer higher rates of physical violence than cis women, misgendering is literal violence, therefore it is TERFs committing the physical violence" and had been amazed to discover that no, it was actually men (mostly punters attacking transwomen in prostitution - exactly the sort of men that if you draw a liberal feminist's attention to their existence, will get you labelled a SWERF as well as a TERF).

FactsAreNotMean · 22/09/2017 16:55

I saw someone demanding that all trans allies must not oppose decriminalization of sex work either. Must. End of. Follow the rules.

I spend a good chunk of time last night clearly and pretty politely trying to explain the murder rate stats to someone - both the fact that the numbers we have don't back up the trans rhetoric and the comparison isn't valid because the populations aren't different. We disagreed but i wasn't rude or offensive. Today I see they've blocked me. If you can't even have a factual discussion of statistics without them finding that so unbearable they can't speak to you then I don't see how it is possible to find any mid ground on bigger issues.

Italiangreyhound · 22/09/2017 18:14

Factsarenotmean you see you brought some facts to Thr picnic, those suckers are sour!

QuentinSummers · 22/09/2017 18:25

Oh I think I saw you on Twitter facts. Linking a study that a TRA claimed "wasn't valid because it excludes trans deaths since 2014" when it blatantly said the date range of the study. Made me laugh.