Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux

[BeyondNoone]

Here's the link to thread one
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3033126-London-meeting-to-discuss-Gender-Identity-attacked-by-transactivists

I'm just going to sleep, if someone else can add the news links for me please? Thanks :)

We have lived alongside transsexual ''women' peacefully for as long as I can remember but there's a very different group coming through now.

I think that's my experience: I worked with a MtF transwoman (both pre- & post-op), and a good friend of a friend of mine is a transwoman. No problems with either of them. Except one posted about a low mood/depression on her FB page and someone chimed in "Menopause" - huh, I don't think so. But I'm not going to upset someone already upset/low by saying that. That would be rude & aggressive.

So this recent activism has caught me somewhat. It feels odd to me to be placed as "conservative" in matters like this. Because the transwomen I know are to me quite 'normal' - whatever that is. They're just people I know, getting on with their lives.

I do worry about "getting into bed" with religious conservatism. I want women-only spaces. But NOT for modesty as in lavatories - I think it's important to have social spaces which are women-only, because this is where women can talk, learn & organise without being dominated by male voices & masculine privilege.

How does any male (or female) put women on the position that there is Thr expectation that they must 'date' or 've sexually active?

I think the main pressure is on the younger women who have been raised on the trans ideology. The view of transactivists is that it is bigoted and transphobic to not want to date a 'transwoman' and that you really need to look at yourself and work to overcome your prejudices - and younger women in particular don't want to be horrible bigots, don't want to upset and 'oppress' transwomen and buy into this. There are even workshops for trans-identified men to 'strategize' overcoming the barriers:

terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

This is Everyday Feminism's Riley J Dennis on the subject:

And a rebuttal of the arguments by one of those gender critical feminists (aka evil fascist Terfs) that they are constantly trying to silence.

Lesbians don't have separate organisations, separate social scene, separate media etc from trans people and pretty much all of them are dominated by the transactivist agenda so this is what 'their' community is telling them. Anyone who disagrees is excluded for transphobia so no dissenting views are heard.

I think once you get to a slightly older age group of lesbians, it is still fairly unacceptable to openly say you won't date a post-op transwoman (I think outside the walls of LGBT organisations, we'd probably all be willing to admit that we wouldn't date someone like Alex) but most wouldn't feel guilted into doing so. You do sometimes get some odd/predatory behaviour from 'transwomen' and older lesbians will acknowledge that it's odd/unwanted behaviour - although they still won't identify what it is (e.g. male entitlement).

I've just been on Internet journey as a result of looking at one of the feminist pages.

There is no doubt that the violence is hotting up. The word terf is completely synonymous with a determined promotion of violence towards women.

'Bullying' is too ineffectual a word.

I have zero confidence that this is just being played out online. Everything to do with the ideology is gradually seeping into mainstream media, schools, etc.

The illogical and ranting exchanges are breathtaking.

Demanding to be told what possible difference can there between a transwoman and woman.

The women responding know that you can't talk about sexual harassment, because that is claimed across the board by transwomen. So you can't talk about sexism, sexual violence, domestic abuse, or misogyny of any description. It's all claimed.

So when they said miscarriages, abortion, fear of pregnancy. The argument instantly switches to well what about women who don't have any of those things, are you saying they aren't women? Classic bait and switch.

And although I've seen exchanges like this many, many times, they have not been accompanied quite so much by what appears to be quite intelligent and articulate people, absolutely incandescent with rage.

It may be because more people are speaking out and the fury has increased as a result.

But I'm quite afraid that this is going to get a lot worse before, or if, it gets any better.

Yes I think so too Datun. And it's going to be framed as the TERFS v the Trannies in the media, so that it will be this hilarious 'left wing eating themselves' thing. Meanwhile, left wing men and lib fems will be falling over themselves to call anyone gender critical 'Fash'

I guess it has all become so wrapped up now that lesbians do not have their own culture.Even if they wanted to just be the L or LGBTQI or whatever it is, the 'L' would contain trans women.

Maybe we need to keep on telling women, all women, straight, lesbian, bi etc, it doesn't matter why you don't want to sleep with someone, date them or become romantically involved. You do not need a reason not to sleep with someone.

The massive irony for me (as a Christian talking to my dd about sexual choices when she is older) is not lost of me.

The religious 'background' I have effectively 'passed on' to dd is viewed by some as anti-feminist etc and is sometimes viewed by some as so oppressive!

Yet, ironically for me it is easier to be the more 'liberal' one against a 'strict' backdrop (well not that strict, Anglican!), than to try and be the more 'morally- restricted' one in a more 'liberal' environment.

I am using all these ' things '' because actually progressive, regressive, liberating etc are all dependent on where you are coming from.

I'm able to tell my dd - her body her chocie etc - but from a certain place. Watching last night's 'Cold Feet, where a 17 year old goes for an abortion, I realize that these are potentially very serious issues for all women but especially young/fertile women.

Especially important to remember that some trans women might get you pregnant where as a lesbian never will!

I rarely say this but I do hate Riley J Denis, such a massive knob!

Yes busyboysmum it is the 'hardness' of men I find appealing (sound like a carry on movie!)

I think women are truly beautiful, very attractive, soft, lovely, but I don't find them sexually attractive, not in the sense of being lesbian.

I sometime wonder if in another life I might have been a lesbian separatist (when one really could be such a person). As a Christian I am appalled that some parts of society ( some bits of church too, sadly) want to try to 'talk people out of' being gay. It's not possible of course, any more than you can talk a straight woman into being a lesbian.

So trans women in attempting to 'convert' lesbians (aka forcing their maleness onto lesbians) are doing what they would consider the bigoted parts of society to do! Why is that bigotry not called out!

More than that it is rape culture plain and simple!

If you have to talk someone into sleeping with you it is coercion. If you have to talk yourself into sleeping with someone it is coercion.

Anyway, sorry do not want to derail, someone just asked a very important question a few posts up but I feel all out of answers today! (Not that I ever really have any, just a permanent fucking shocked look on my face at all this crap!)

I hear you, Italian.

This link in Chat is very good. As Chat disappears you may want to take a look

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3041586-Robert-Webb-peep-show-has-just-terfed-all-over-twitter?watched=1&msgid=72127639#72127639

There is a fabulous link to the fourth wave now link is amazing. Really links to so many other relevant things from one post.

4thwavenow.com/2016/12/17/a-mums-voyage-through-transtopia-helps-her-daughter-desist/

It's called 'A mum’s voyage through Transtopia: A tale of love and desistance'

There is also an interesting link which is...

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

So when they said miscarriages, abortion, fear of pregnancy. The argument instantly switches to well what about women who don't have any of those things, are you saying they aren't women? Classic bait and switch.

Datun how would you respond to that? I'm almost trying to prepare myself for something. I think this is going to be coming to the place I work very soon and I want to be able to defend my rights.

How can I respond to it?

I read recently an article about male gay dating sites, where it's apparently quite common for men to say they don't want any Asians, or they're only interested in a particular ethnic group. So that's ok, apparently, but it's not ok for lesbians to say they only want sex with women.

SmartiesHaveTheAnswer

It's frustrating. The arguments go round and round in circles. I would only suggest you keep completely calm and keep emotion out of it. However difficult that might be.

Anyway in answer to that, yes some women don't get pregnant, but pregnancy is exclusive to women. No man can get pregnant.

It's the flipside of the assertion. You have to keep remembering what men can't do, not what woman can.

If you talk about chromosomes, they will being up intersex. If you talk about wombs, they will bring up some fictional woman who was born without one.

You can only say no man has a womb, no man can get pregnant, etc.

"Yes, not all women menstruate, but only women menstruate.

It's completely ridiculous. But that is the way the conversation goes.

Because, of course, when I was trying to conceive, my husband and I sat down and discussed who would carry the baby. In the end we left it to chance. In an uncanny coincidence, it fell to me. Both times!

Talking about who impregnates, and who gets pregnant sometimes carries a bit of weight.

Or asking. "So, since the dawn of time, how did people know what to do to carry on the human race"?

In terms of defending your rights at work. If it's to do with bathrooms, there is a law in place that says even if they have a gender neutral bathrooms they must also provide a sex segregated one.

And also a trans person doesn't have to use the gender neutral one, they can't just turn the ladies into unisex, for instance. With no other option for women.

Sometimes this works, and everyone is happy. Sometimes the trans person seeks validation by using the bathroom of the opposite sex.

SmartiesHaveTheAnswer can I ask how you know 'it' will be coming to your work place?

In all this can't talk about xyz, the thing is what do many of us talk about - our relationships! I don't have a mum or a das anymore (or periods, just as an aside) and I know others who are not married or in a life partnership relationship or don't have kids, but we still talk about relationships, kids, parents etc.

The other thing to remember in the "not all women can get pregnant" argument is that the social disadvantages that go with being a member of the child-bearing class in society continue. You go for a job interview, there are still dinosaurs out there who'll be mentally calculating the risk of you going on maternity leave vs. that nice young man who wasn't quite as well qualified... It doesn't actually matter whether you are capable of, intending to, or wanting to have children at some stage, you will still be on the receiving end of that same set of prejudices and disadvantages simply in virtue of being female.

Thank you Datun - that's really helpful.
It's also helpful to know about these circular arguments.

Italian I am told that our new Year 7's are also going to have the same talk/presentation as they did last year. Where a Trans man won the kids over by saying that part of him knowing he was a man and not a woman was that he was a slob who throws his clothes on the floor and likes gaming up until all hours. The kids loved this and the attending staff were . They then explained that women can have penises and men can have vaginas and I think the staff wondered who the hell sanctioned this. No one knows. One of the talk people has since been employed at our school and has already 'helped' one 14 year old girl come out as a trans boy.
Another talk is apparently scheduled although I cannot find when. I'm only a TA and a nervous one at that and feel I cannot do too much investigating.

Why doesn't that sort of talk come with the same proviso as any other religious or philosophical discussion? 'Most people believe* that being a man/woman is biological, but a certain percentage believe that it is psychological, appearance-based or cultural. You don't have to share their belief, but they should not be mocked for that belief.'

*Actually, I'd say 'most people know...'

SmartiesHaveTheAnswer

Ask to see the science. Say, as far as you understand, gender dysphoria is a psychological illness. Like anorexia.

Ask for the science. Peer reviewed studies. Not an article.

Even if you don't understand it, read it. They will have a conclusion at the end. There is no scientific consensus to support this.

Ask about autogynephilia.

Ask how one can tell a person who has gender dysphoria from a cross dressing fetishist, given they are both transgender according to Stonewalls own definition.

was that he was a slob who throws his clothes on the floor

Oh gosh, I'm a man ...

I suspect I"m going to have to deal with this at my workplace as well, under the label of "diversity" - a committee I sit on. Where the women on the committee have already informally identified the biggest "diversity" issue as the pay gap between men & women.

I expect that we'll be truly diverted from that actual material structural discrimination, however.

Thank you Datun.
I'm making notes here.

Please can I ask :
The 'g' in the autogynephelia -is it pronounced as in gynaecology or the g in genius?

I'm pulling you all off topic here but I want to get things right and be taken seriously.

I feel so strongly about this that DH and I have discussed me receiving a disciplinary if I was to speak up in this PowerPoint presentation and ask these questions. Every penny counts in my household like in all our houses, but DH feels I should speak up whatever the consequences.

MN has been an eye opener for me. I am seeing statistics quoted about the % of children who are said to be trans compared with the number who genuinely are or who subsequently come out as gay, and about the % of trans women who are fully functioning men with autogynephelia (a word I'd never heard of until a few weeks ago). Please can someone tell me where these statistics come from? I've tried Googling (goodness knows what ads I will start receiving) but I haven't found the sources.

misscockerspaniel

These are some good websites.

Gendertrender
Feministcurrent
4thwavenow

And not dodgy!

There is usually a search box at the top. You can search on stuff like statistics, surgery, names, etc.

I would then recommend that you click on every link, to find the original source.

Gendertrender particularly, are forensic in their research.

They are highly gender critical, and have no truck with predatory men. But I have yet to see them assert one single thing that they haven't been able to back up with extensive sources and citations.

Their analysis is invaluable, because they have women's rights at the forefront.

SmartiesHaveTheAnswer

It's a hard G, as in gynaecology. Shortened to AGP. Also sometimes called forced feminisation, cissification, female embodiment fantasy, cross-dreaming.

In terms of children, it's a big issue. Lupron, which is the puberty blocker used, is an anti-cancer drug and is being administered off label.

You can use the websites I've just posted and put Lupron in the search box to find the studies.

It's one thing accommodating children who want to change pronouns and names, it's quite another taking that to the logical conclusion of them being on lifelong hormones, permanently sterile, and have double mastectomies, or penis inversion.

Late transitioning men who have penis inversion have enough penile material to create a facsimile of a vagina (neo vagina) and some sexual sensation.

It's quite another if you start on puberty blockers. Because there's not enough material by the time they're old enough. Their genitals remain those of a prepubescent. See Jazz Jennings.

Oh gosh Datun, I've been following Jazz Jennings and I'm deeply troubled that a young child has gone so far to make these changes. It's damaging and very very wrong.

...but that makes me transphobic or a TERF to even have these concerns, right?

Dear God.