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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are feminists so aggressive?

736 replies

BertrandRussell · 07/09/2017 14:11

This, or something like it, it always being asked. People say that the FWR board on here is scary and hounds out people whose faces don't fit. That women are always being told they can't be feminists if.......And so on. And so on.

In my experiences, you are much more likely to get an aggressive response if you express a feminist point of view than the other way round. Is it just me? Or am I missing something?

There have been plenty of interesting feminists threads recently, where everyone seems to be holding their own- but the same old accusations keep coming up.

OP posts:
StopThePlanet · 17/09/2019 22:18

/rant fin

Creepster · 17/09/2019 23:03

I am only on page 18 but thought it might be appropriate to mention this.
13th rule of misogyny: Angry women are crazy aggressive. Angry men just have trouble expressing themselves.

Creepster · 17/09/2019 23:08

I see we have moved on from page 18 to the 12th rule of misogyny: Women's ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/09/2019 23:19

Is there a rule for the wickedest thing a woman can do (other than not wanting to touch a man's penis) is tell him he's being silly?

Creepster · 18/09/2019 01:51

I think that falls under the 4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified.

GirlDownUnder · 18/09/2019 15:55

StopThePlanet

Loved your post. The content is mostly horrifying but your strength and words are remarkable Brew

Goosefoot · 18/09/2019 16:06

I have never, ever, ever seen this.

Really? I see this all the time here, three or so times a week probably. I know people who have tried to post here, looking to find out more about various issues, and had people be so rude to them they never came back. They were just regular women, not members of some sort of weird patriarchal group, so it's nothing to do with women talking back to men being seen as acceptable.

Now, it's always the same few people, but that's often enough to give the impression that a whole board is like that.

StopThePlanet · 18/09/2019 16:51

GirlDownUnder

Thank you Smile

Considering the recent study completed and reported on this week in the US based on aggregated data gathered from women 18-44yrs, 1 out of 16 women in the US have a non-consensual (whether through extreme coercion or force) first experience of sex. They reported the average of the age of 15yrs for the survivors (girls/women) and the average rapist/assaulter age for that same group was 27 (boys/men). The overwhelming number of women whose first sexual experience was in the single digits like myself is what drug the average down to 15yrs.

Unfortunately I'm not unique - this is an epidemic here in the US and I expect that if the same type of study was done internationally it would be seen as a pandemic. It is a societal disease (male domination/entitlement/power) which men carry and infect women with through their actions.

This is our world. Through giant tears pouring from my mother's heart she asked me why is the world like this?

Creepster · 18/09/2019 20:11

No getting around the fact that there are people who think women with the nerve to say no, thank you, are rude.
I guess it depends on whether you view the FWR board as a place where Feminists talk about women's rights or a board where women are expected to educate people who don't bother to read the news or google Feminism 101.
There are many women here on FWR with the patience of Job who respond positively to inquiries that do not include an insult in the first sentence, and even some that do. I am not one of them.

LordRandallXV · 18/09/2019 21:08

I always take studies with a pinch of salt, not least because people don't tend to mention the ones that don't fit their agenda, like the below. It's always been said that men are more reluctant to report domestic abuse and interestingly more recent studies which have asked women instead paint a very different picture. However, most of the studies concur that men do the most harm, likely due to their strength, even though women are possibly more likely to be the abuser.

Women are more likely to be verbally and physically aggressive towards their partners than men suggests a new study presented as part of a symposium on intimate partner violence (IPV).

Analysis showed that women were more likely to be physically aggressive to their partners than men and that men were more likely to be physically aggressive to their same-sex others.

Furthermore, women engaged in significantly higher levels of controlling behaviour than men, which significantly predicted physical aggression in both sexes.

Dr Elizabeth Bates of the University of Cumbria explained: "This was an interesting finding. Previous studies have sought to explain male violence towards women as rising from patriarchal values, which motivate men to seek to control women's behaviour, using violence if necessary.

"This study found that women demonstrated a desire to control their partners and were more likely to use physical aggression than men. This suggests that IPV may not be motivated by patriarchal values and needs to be studied within the context of other forms of aggression, which has potential implications for interventions."

Women more likely to be aggressive than men in relationships

June 26, 2014
British Psychological Society

www.google.com/amp/s/medicalxpress.com/news/2014-06-women-aggressive-men-relationships.amp

The study, which challenges the long-standing view that women are overwhelmingly the victims of aggression, is based on an analysis of 34,000 men and women by a British academic.

"It's a complex argument but we do get more women aggressing against male partners than men against female partners," said Dr George. "The view is that women are acting in self-defence but that is not true - 50 per cent of those who initiate aggression are women.

His research is backed up by historical records which show that men who were beaten by their wives were publicly humiliated in a ceremony called a "skimmington procession". The procession was named after the ladle used to skim milk during cheese making.

Women are more violent, says study

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-are-more-violent-says-study-622388.html?amp

The article summarised the latest official statistics and research on domestic violence, providing evidence that most domestic violence is two-way, involving women as well as men.[2] This was regarded as a breach of policy, because, on its own website, RAWA says its domestic violence policy “is historically framed by a feminist analysis of gendered power relations” which, contrary to the international evidence, denies women’s role in domestic violence.

The problem is often more complicated, and may involve both women and men as perpetrators”. Based on the findings of an analysis of more than 11,000 American men and women aged eighteen to twenty-eight, the letter concluded:

"When the violence is one-sided … women were the perpetrators about 70% of the time. Men were more likely to be injured in reciprocally violent relationships (25%) than were women when the violence was one-sided (20%). That means both men and women agreed that men were not more responsible than women for intimate partner violence."

After analysing the data, which contained information about domestic violence reported by 11,370 respondents on 18,761 heterosexual relationships, the following conclusions were reached:

- A woman’s perpetration of domestic violence is the strongest predictor of her being a victim of partner violence;[7]

- Among relationships with non-reciprocal violence, women were reported to be the perpetrator in a majority of cases; [8]

- Women reported greater perpetration of violence than men did (34.8 per cent against 11.4 per cent, respectively).[9]

Based on the information available, the authors concluded:

Our findings that half of relationships with violence could be characterised as reciprocally violent are consistent with prior studies. We are surprised to find, however, that among relationships with nonreciprocal violence, women were the perpetrators in a majority of cases, regardless of participant gender. One possible explanation for this, assuming that men and women are equally likely to initiate physical violence, is that men, who are typically larger and stronger, are less likely to retaliate if struck first by their partner. Thus, some men may be following the norm that “men shouldn’t hit women” when struck first by their partner.

Women Can Be as Violent as Men

quadrant.org.au/magazine/2018/09/women-can-violent-men/

Design/methodology/approach

The paper's approach is to re‐examine NISVS data, research on the impact of IPV on male victims and the system's response to it.

Findings

In the last year, males are more often the victim of intimate partner physical violence, psychological aggression and control over sexual/reproductive health.

Social implications

Increased domestic violence education directed at women and services to men should lead to a reduction of DV against women as well as men, since woman aggressors frequently are themselves victimized subsequently.

US National Survey: more men than women victims of intimate partner violence

www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/17596591211244166/full/html

Aberhonddu · 18/09/2019 21:15

goosefoot
I'm a committed lurker here, I read all of the threads on FWR, I've seen posters that have been shut down and 99% of the time it's completely obvious why they've been shut down. They're not posting in good faith. They're not posting to find out more information. They're posting to either derail the thread or grab some screenshots to share and gloat about on Twitter. Some of them have derailing down to a fine art.
I've also seen regular posters on here take time and patience to answer questions that are posed over and over again.
Then after a question has been answered for the nth time and a question comes back that has one slight alteration, the regular poster, who, quite rightly has had enough of the obfuscation basically says fuck this I'm off.

zebrasdontwearbras · 18/09/2019 21:34

Thank you for saying that, Aberhonddu - I always like it when the lurkers unlurk to say something positive about FWR Wink

And StopThePlanet - that was a very heartfelt and justified rant - thank you Thanks

Aberhonddu · 18/09/2019 21:54

zebras
It does piss me off a lot when Mumsnet users condemn FWR posters as a bunch of transphobic nutters. I've seen and read the help they've given to so many genuine questioners of the GC stance. I've also seen many heart warming threads involving parents of transgender children. I've seen genuine compassion from FWR regulars and to write them off as bigoted transphobes is just ridiculous.
In RL I can hold my own in a conversation about the trans ideology just because of everything I read here.
This, for me is the best part of Mumsnet

Aberhonddu · 18/09/2019 21:56

I wanted to add to Stop the Planet your post hit many chords with me, it was very moving and Flowers for you

Ereshkigal · 18/09/2019 23:51

How about Cock Feminism?

Perfect. It will go far.

StopThePlanet · 19/09/2019 00:00

LordRandallXV

Cool story bro.

Earlier in the thread you talked about how this board is basically middle-class middle-aged white women who have never been murdered, raped, etc.

The incredibly long post I wrote before I posted about the study was mostly (for the lurkers whilst) directed at you as a response to your claim that we are all living in our ivory towers discussing the travesties of the peasants below. Because you believe you have just as much of a right to have your opinions considered on women's issues as us (as per your assumptions that we don't know of which we speak) even though you are a man. That you know better our suffering, our demoralization, our subjugation, and our anger. But really you are just another "dick" trying to tell a bunch of "pussies" (double entendre intended) what to think on a feminism board. It is really fucking hilarious. 🤣

Quite unsurprising that you chose to ignore that post and jumped on the study that I posted which properly reflects (by the way) the experiences of not only myself but most women I've had any deep conversation with.

There are lots of bogus studies out there that aren't peer-reviewed and they don't hold any weight (anything McKinnon talks about etc). But newsflash, this particular study was based on data collected by the United States federal government health services, authored primarily by a female and co-authored by a mixture of female and male medical doctors (so not biased based on sex in regards to data collection and analysis), and is peer reviewed meaning a valid study - published by the American Medical Association.

Furthermore, did you see the age ranges of the data collected? Did you also see the average age of the victims as well as the perpetrators? And you want to focus on female violence from bogus studies?

British Psychological Society

www.google.com/amp/s/medicalxpress.com/news/2014-06-women-aggressive-men-relationships.amp

A survey conducted by polling 1,104 students (706 women and 398 men) at a university is hardly representative of the population of men and women. I look at more people than that when I do market analysis for a potential area of service for clients. Additionally, that study was not peer-reviewed as the BPS just recently adopted registered reporting which allows them to have peer review. The "study" is from 2014 thus before peer review. Between the small sample set as well as the fact that the survey was of college students the study is invalid for the reported topic.

Women are more violent, says study

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-are-more-violent-says-study-622388.html?amp

Where's the study? There aren't any links to it in the article of course and there's no reference to peer review or what publication published it as a scholarly article or study. If not peer-reviewed or published his analysis is completely subjective thus not valid.

Women Can Be as Violent as Men

quadrant.org.au/magazine/2018/09/women-can-violent-men/

Now we're into actual publications that are peer reviewed. But the sample age was 18-28 (again, likely college students) so while valid data it is not representative of the breadth of the population. Surveys conducted by polling people three to four years past completion of brain development are not a good marker to apply to society as a whole only application of said statistics to that demographic are relevant.

US National Survey: more men than women victims of intimate partner violence

www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/17596591211244166/full/html

Emerald is a publisher who acquired another publisher (Elsevier) as well as others and then published studies on predatory publishing citing "predatory" practices that all of the original and acquired companies are known to demonstrably practice (not citing authors, advertising via studies, illogical and unfounded "studies" etc.). Funny that, none of their studies mention themselves.
Additionally, the survey reviewed from the US was from one year - (2012) whereas the date of collection began in 2011 and continues through today. Why I wonder did Emerald Publishing's Journal of Aggression, Conflict and Peace Research, Vol. 4 No. 3, pp. 155-163 author of the study ignore the first year of data?

As per NISVS, the data collected is a complex sample survey, sampling weights are needed in statistical analyses in order to make inferences to the U.S. adult population. Additionally, these surveys are conducted via random telephone dial contact to domestic households only and does not take into account those that are homeless or those living in DV shelters or temporary housing.

And considering Bert H Hoff (study sole author) is an individual with a JD he likely does not have the statistical analysis skills required to analyze such data. Because nowhere in his education would he be required to study complex statistical analysis. People like Bert contact analysts to analyze their data but since there is no analyst citation I surmise that he wrote some macros in Excel or used the simple LexisNexis statiscal tool meant for simple data analysis (primarily financial operations) and plugged in the numbers and declared it STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. The University of Phoenix is a commercial (for profit) college whose graduation rate is 17% with student loan defaults at 26%... UoPX has been under investigation by the US Federal Trade Commission since 2015 and still is today - it is owned by a private-equity firm. Bert H Hoff is an adjunct professor at UoPX (with no other affiliations listed or found online, like he hasn't done anything notable in academia beyond declaring "women bad, men abused, poor men!") so I highly disregard his standard of ethics. Also, I can't find any evidence that he ever worked in law by searching public documents from US district courts (if he couldn't pass the bar he definitely isn't capable of statistical analysis). Full stop.

No one here denies that men are also victims of DV, however, as feminists we don't center men. Why don't you take your worries to a men's board and do something to support the men of which you speak? DV perpetrated against men is a men's issue and you are on a feminism board.

So ignore and deflect if you want but you aren't fooling anyone here with your bogus "studies" supporting your MRA arguments.

bd67th · 19/09/2019 00:04

How many men murder women,.children, and other men each week? Yet they have the nerve to.call us aggressive...

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 00:05

It's always so funny to watch a love-in develop on a thread where the "but you're all so mean and I don't feel that my MRA talking points are receiving the deference they deserve" army is out.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 00:06

(Next post will be "there they go calling me and MRA just because I've posted the entire MRA bingo card in exactly the order they predicted I would".)

StopThePlanet · 19/09/2019 00:07

Thanks to everyone for the kind words.

Uh... I mean shame on us for centering women in a feminism forum!!!! Bad women, bad women, heel!!! Anyone have a ruler to snap my knuckles with? I'm sure Lordhandinhispants will be along shortly to show me my place. 🤣

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 00:08

Bad woman, no manpraise for you!

StopThePlanet · 19/09/2019 00:12

TheProdigalKittensReturn

Bad woman, no manpraise for you!

But, but it's so painful! Who will validate me who, who??? Now I'm broken! 😭

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 00:16

I'm sure he'll tell you what you can do to regain manfavor! No guarantees about how much sense it will make.

Meanwhile everyone else will continue their group hug offcamera. Or possibly a group pat on the back if they're feeling particularly British.

StopThePlanet · 19/09/2019 00:32

😁

zebrasdontwearbras · 19/09/2019 00:36

Thanks again StopThePlanet - I was thinking of posting a rebuttal to Lord's post - but couldn't be arsed. I've had these debates, under different names, for years on Mumsnet. It's the "women do it too" argument, and it simply doesn't hold water.

Speaking generally you need to be wary of the collection methods of data in these studies with the bizarre finding that women are more aggressive. Self reporting is unreliable - because research has shown that women under-report (and play down) dv, while men over-report.

And sometimes these studies give as much weight to "she scratched me" or "threw the remote at me" as "he imprisoned me, and beat me, kicked me, and I was hospitalised" - counting these incidents as "equal" acts of domestic violence.

Suffice to say that men account for well over 98% of sexual crime convictions, over 80% of violent crime convictions, and (from memory) around 85-90% of domestic violence convictions. I think someone who seriously believes women are more aggressive or violent than men, are not living in the real word at all. Maybe get out more, LordR - because the facts speak for themselves.

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