Why are feminists so aggressive?

[BertrandRussell]

This, or something like it, it always being asked. People say that the FWR board on here is scary and hounds out people whose faces don't fit. That women are always being told they can't be feminists if.......And so on. And so on.

In my experiences, you are much more likely to get an aggressive response if you express a feminist point of view than the other way round. Is it just me? Or am I missing something?

There have been plenty of interesting feminists threads recently, where everyone seems to be holding their own- but the same old accusations keep coming up.

Ooh the whole thing is still on Youtube.

Obviously, I'm sure absolutely anyone who frequents the FWR section on mumsnet will be interested in watching this film about second wave feminism. I'm sure

If you're called a handmaiden on FWR you really need to think about what you said. It was probably either badly phrased or anti-feminist. We are well aware here that women fought against women having the vote. That women fight in favour of porn and sex work. Those are not, from my perspective, feminist viewpoints.

Some women even argue that men can be women. Profoundly anti-feminist.

Some women think pink-brain is a thing. Some women are anti-abortion. Some women are surrendered wives. These are not feminist viewpoints - own it.

'becoming'? That's delightful.

I have expended lots and lots of my time on FWR explaining how some of these issues look from my very specific perspective. I've tried to use the skills I have in communication over literally hundreds of threads because I genuinely care about the rights and protections of women and girls, to the point that I have stood on the streets on my day off talking about the GRC consultation.

When I first rocked up to FWR, the female socialization in me was horrified at the way well recognized names refused to play nice at all. That was before I even began posting. But I kept reading, because in amongst that bracing and uncomfortable rudeness, arguments were made and eventually I began to see they weren't being rude, they just weren't being endless deferential and caveating and justifying every single statement. No is a complete sentence is one of the most powerful statements I have ever gleaned from MN.

Look, if you don't like FWR, I'm not trying to make you like it or any of the posters here. None of us are trying to be your best friend and if you think we're all horrible harpies who just need better social skills, well that's your right of opinion. But all I am reading this evening is endless permutations of "You may speak the truth, but you say it wrong, so no one will listen." If you can't see that as just another compliance request, I really don't know what to say to you, but I will say you are likely to still get a bolshy reaction the women who have come through the radicalisation portal and seen that they are under no obligations to comply.

Being "becoming" is just another stick to beat women. Men are never told to be "becoming" or nobody will listen. They are always listened to even when they are aggressive as hell. And have the power. Look at the men in power around you right now. Nobody gives one solitary fuck that Trump has been accused of rape and assault against women. That "grab them by the pussy" tape should have been the end of him - but it wasn't.

Women are held to such a higher standard. Even on this comparatively tiny internet forum. Trump assaults women - but women, be nice when you talk about this stuff.

"Becoming"? Does that request come with a pair of opera gloves and a tiara?

I'm cis northern, mate, we don't do any of that shit where I'm from.

If you're called a handmaiden on FWR you really need to think about what you said.

Well that is my point, people do need to think more deeply, but will calling names make them think? A lot of women, especially younger women will have grown up with different messages about gender and "sex work is work", they probably know and are friends with trans people and are surrounded by a culture that does not encourage them to think about their rights and how easily they could be lost.

I don't think anyone is obliged to be nice, I think some home truths are very important, Magdalen Berns straight talking really opened my eyes. If someone is being ridiculous then ridicule it. I just don't want to push women away when they first start seeing the reality of the situation and are asking questions because that is where I started and my views did not change overnight.

So be the person who reaches out, if that's something you feel moved to do. Don't expect other people to do it for you.

Hatful - we have all grown up with these messages - do you honestly think we haven't? Do you think feminists have been grown in an all female cave or cave - we all know this stuff.

Jeez - "Pretty Woman" was the thing when I was at Uni - you think that swayed me? No it did not.

My point is, no feminists are particulalry nasty to people on here - much more nastiness is seen throughout mumsnet's other forums. And we're not "recruiting" - if you find your place here, you're most probably a feminist - if not, well do some reading make the arguments against.

Maybe this isn't the place for this discussion, tone gets lost and it feels like there's straw-manning some of my points. I am not telling women to be more kind, or they should obliged to reach out to change minds and "recruit".

Obviously we all had damaging messages growing up. Personally I find the messages around gender in recent years particularly urgent and a step backwards that is creating a time bomb of problems for the future. Especially when it is leading to adults now affirming "born in the wrong body" and medicalisation of children and a break down of safe guarding.

I am doubting I'll "find my place here" which is fine. It's no reflection on my feminist beliefs, I have read up extensively and learnt a lot, especially from the second wave. Real life conversations seem more productive for me anyway.

Thank you for the links zebrasdontwearbras. I cheer when I listen to Germs dissect the weaselly arguments of nasty, little men. I want to punch the men for being so disingenuous though.

As if women haven’t earned their rage through millenia of years strewn with women murdered, raped, enslaved and denied.

You wonder why we’re not more aggressive.

I don't expect universal agreement when I post something but where there is disagreement, its almost always well-reasoned, articulated in a polite and not personal way, and you can engage with it

Really? Look at threads like the Middle Ground one. A person tries to express an idea, does so slightly imperfectly, and then dozes of posts that are dismissive, condescending, and absolutely don't engage or make any attempt to get at what the individual was looking for.

How is that being respectful of women's ideas and voices?

One of the biggest reason many women don't find much for them in feminism is because of the sense that their voices aren't actually very welcome there, that it doesn't speak on their behalf and has no interest.

That's not solidarity, and I don't mean mindless agreement by that, I mean respect for them as persons.

The thread on FWR that really got me was the one about the courts ordering the young disabled woman to have a late abortion.

Many posters turned up to share their experiences of late abortions and caring for disabled relatives. They were roundly derided for their ignorance and stupidity and accused of basically making up their own experiences. As they refused to change their minds the frustration at their ignorance and inability to correctly understand the arguments of those who knew better grew.

Most people left the discussion after a couple of posts. I stayed til the end. There was a bit more discussion later on AIBU. I was trying to talk with a woman who had a disabled relative about the rights of disabled women during pregnancy and childbirth. A couple of people turned up from FWR to accuse us of gloating.

Presumably because the decision had been overturned by then citing many of the reasons given by all the ignorant women who had been trying to share their views on FWR.

The experience left me feeling bruised. Now on reflection it makes me angry. The quality of discourse could and should be improved.

The impression I was left with is that there is more interest by some on here in winning arguments than in discussing the rights of actual women and how they could be improved.

Do you have a link or a vague idea of when that happened grape

Dont worry if not im sure i can find it eventually

Thanks

If you search under my name I think you will find it pretty fast.

I don't actually post that much. Tbh maybe I got over invested in that particular discussion.

I also wonder have I been left feeling the way I do because I was in the minority in that discussion.

Maybe people with divergent views also end up feeling the same way when they post about other subjects.

I think we could be kinder and more respectful to one another and more women would want to contribute to discussions.

Thanks grape

I think quite often we get over invested

I tried explaining something on a thread in many different ways cos a poster wasnt understanding what i was saying

Then i realised that they were NEVER going to understand...for whatever reason

So i gave up got quite stressed about it all though

I don’t necessarily mean on FWR

All over the forum

I think though the reason people can have particularly bad experiences on FWR is because on other areas of the site there is more diversity of opinion.

Also here people think that they are in the right and are defending women's rights and therefore any bad behaviour, sarcastic putdowns etc are justified.

It's the same mentality that can lead religious people and left wingers to behave worse than agnostics and the politically disinterested. They know that they are acting on the side of God or social justice or whatever and that absolves them from any need to reflect on their behaviour.

As if women haven’t earned their rage through millenia of years strewn with women murdered, raped, enslaved and denied.

But is that really the experience of the average white middle class feminist that is seemingly the main demographic on mumsnet?

Less than 0.01% women are murdered and I doubt many on here have been enslaved. Women now outearn men until they have children and continue to if they don't. The number of rich men is steadily falling and the number of rich women is rising, which is unsurprising considering how many more women now go to university.

Of course there are gendered issues which women face but men have their own which are conveniently ignored in most discussions or called 'MRA talk'.

The men, what about them? The bar which one must meet in order to justify discussing women's issues has now been reset at "have you been murdered?"

(Presumably those still allowed to speak are to communicate with MN via ouija board.)

But is that really the experience of the average white middle class feminist that is seemingly the main demographic on mumsnet?

You just assume that because women are articulate we must be middle class and white.

Well, surveys have shown that to be the principle demographic on mumsnet. It does seem to be very popular with university students too. Of course there will be exceptions.

Its also really bizarre that you don't think middle class women are at any risk of male violence.

Dear friends, I come to you from the other side to say - bring booze, not gin.