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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are feminists so aggressive?

736 replies

BertrandRussell · 07/09/2017 14:11

This, or something like it, it always being asked. People say that the FWR board on here is scary and hounds out people whose faces don't fit. That women are always being told they can't be feminists if.......And so on. And so on.

In my experiences, you are much more likely to get an aggressive response if you express a feminist point of view than the other way round. Is it just me? Or am I missing something?

There have been plenty of interesting feminists threads recently, where everyone seems to be holding their own- but the same old accusations keep coming up.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 18:48

that's not how class analysis works Randall

there aren't two classes in the whole world and that's it

dearie, dearie me

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 18:51

and I'm loving the idea that factual responses to you are 'soundbites'

having someone saw your pelvic bone during childbirth without consultation and consent? a mere soundbite! away with your piffling details!

Justhadathought · 17/09/2019 18:52

*I'm cis northern, mate, we don't do any of that shit where I'm from
*

Does that mean you were actually born in the north, or is it just that you identify as being from the north? Perhaps that is why you use the word ' mate'? Isn't that how all northern folk speak?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/09/2019 19:13

One might gently suggest that if Randall was to stop vaping the seductive fumes of self pity his life might improve.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 19:22

well at least by the standards of 'you can't complain about women getting murdered unless you've actually been murdered yourself', I expect randall can talk with impunity about women's unreasonable pickiness when it comes to which men they will date

I expect loads of women have declined to date randall

I mean, loads of men have refused to date me, but it hadn't previously occurred to me that I could claim it as a source of oppression

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/09/2019 19:26

Is being turned down by overly picky women who won't date men who're short or poor or bald better or worse than being murdered, I wonder?

Wait, have we done the draft yet?

LordRandallXV · 17/09/2019 19:38

Yup, cue the ad hominems. I'll tick that off my list as well.

I just think that a lot of feminism is divisive, sometimes by intent and sometimes not, and this isn't the best way to realistically solve any problems. There are good men and bad men (with some bad pretending to be good obv) and using class analysis to try and lay responsibility at the feet of the men not perpetrating the crimes discussed is unlikely to make them allies. In fact, it's likely to do the opposite.

Some of you likely won't care about this (in spite of it making things worse for women as a class) and others will say 'but we can't tell the good men from the bad'. But you can be assured that the men who don't rape, abuse, and murder know they're not the ones responsible and telling them it's their responsibility to 'sort out the bad men' is likely to create resistance - it's human nature.

I really think the best option is for society to work in sorting it out and that many feminists don't help by trying to split it between the sexes and say 'it's not our responsibility'. This is the complete opposite of 'stepping up' IMO. I'm just glad that the many woman who are making a difference in the police force, social services, military, courts, etc, aren't sitting back and saying 'not my problem. Talk to the menz'.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 19:40

being turned down by women? miles worse than being murdered kittens

so bad that you're allowed to talk about how bad it is even if it hasn't happened to you

it really is that serious

#prayfortheshortmen

BeMoreMagdalen · 17/09/2019 19:42

I'm really laughing now. This is a zombie thread, raised by a now deleted troll post, and certain folk have taken the opportunity to tell the women here how to do feminism better, which is apparently achieved by a mix of being a bit more twee in their manner of expression, and thinking more about how to solve men's problems.

Which branch of feminism shall we call this? Would Patriarchy be too obvious? How about Cock Feminism?

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 19:44

ah

feminists are so mean that they stop people from sympathising with them

that was a square I missed on my card

if feminists just stopped going on about it all the time I expect all the raping, sexual assault, voyeurism, flashing, sexual coercion would just stop

in many ways I blame Mary Wollstonecraft. If that woman knew what her legacy was to be, she never would have slept at night

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/09/2019 19:46

Nice Girl Feminism? Was going to say Doormat Feminism but I suppose that fails the politeness rule...

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 19:48

Beryl Feminism?

LordRandallXV · 17/09/2019 19:48

Moaning about men isn't 'solving' the problem. Of course not all feminists do (NAFALT), but it certainly seems a bit overrepresented.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/09/2019 19:48

in many ways I blame Mary Wollstonecraft. If that woman knew what her legacy was to be, she never would have slept at night

And if all the manchildren who don't realize that her daughter invented science fiction as a genre knew about that family connection they wouldn't either!

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 19:50

and then there's Magdalen Feminism, as mostly practised here

which randall says makes things worse for women as a class even though he doesn't believe in class analysis

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 19:52

everyone knows women don't invent things kittens

not temperamentally suited to it. they chose not to

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/09/2019 19:55

Men can't be a class because they're all fascinatingly unique individuals, but women are a class because we're a bit boring, yeah?

I can't wait till all the people terribly offended by Magdalen Feminism discover Dworkin!

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 19:59

moaning about men

aka noticing that most of the violent, nasty things that happen to, well anyone really, men included, are done by other men

stop noticing things

notice, notice, notice. we'll have to call you little miss notice

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 20:01

women can be a class because they're not really people are they? I mean not really.

they don't have actual feelings. that's why it doesn't matter that loads of shitty things happen to them just because they're women.

terryleather · 17/09/2019 20:03

This thread put me in mind of this...

Why are feminists so aggressive?
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/09/2019 20:06

Interesting correlation between the men who're always moaning about women moaning about men and the men who've proven incapable of getting women to moan because of men in a more fun way.

Terry's cartoon makes me think of the people arguing that global warming can't be real because it was really cold that one day a few weeks ago.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/09/2019 20:37

Moaning about men isn't 'solving' the problem.

identifying problematic behaviours statistically perpetrated by men is a necessary prerequisite to finding solutions though.
Even good men may be quite oblivious to these problems, unfortunately, so it falls to women on the receiving end of them, and other women who can empathise with the victims, to raise these issues. And to keep raising them until changes occur. In some cases, good men will get the message and help - that's great.

If someone characterises this persistent identification of issues as moaning then ... oh ... another problem identified.

Inebriati · 17/09/2019 21:04

I dont even know where to start with all the red herrings. I just wish people would fact check before they post.

why is suicide the most common cause of death in males under 50yo
Because men choose more violent methods than women and are more successful.

''In countries around the world, women are more likely to be diagnosed with depression and to attempt suicide. So why is the male suicide rate still several times higher than female?''
www.bbc.com/future/story/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women

''In the western world, males die by suicide three to four times more often than do females.[4][7] This greater male frequency is increased in those over the age of 65.[8] Suicide attempts are between two and four times more frequent among females.[9][10][11] Researchers have attributed the difference between attempted and completed suicides among the sexes to males using more lethal means to end their lives.''

Gender differences in suicide
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

MrGHardy · 17/09/2019 21:08

Because when you have your ideas challenged, it seems like aggression.

StopThePlanet · 17/09/2019 22:17

Perhaps I qualify to "moan about men" as a CLASS (while simultaneously being married to the most incredible man on the planet).

See yesterday my mom came to my house for a hug... so sweet and benign at face value.

For context, I am 42yrs old - old enough to be covered under the protective class of age here in the US (so "old" by law standards lol).

But, you see, the need for a hug was predicated by the fact that her soon-to-be ex-husband approached me via phone about an incredibly inappropriate subject of which I disclosed to my mom yesterday morning. I also reminded her of the last time I saw her husband in person; two months ago he yanked my ponytail from behind me to pull me to him for a hug. The experience was very confusing and disturbing. She told me yesterday that he is a "hair puller" during sex (I surmised that when the incident occurred) and is particularly fond of ponytails in that regard... like a rein. Three years ago I was gently coerced (by my mom) into calling this man "dad" even though he isn't old enough to be my father and I made it known that it made me uncomfortable (also they've only been married eight and a half years and I've only seen him in person maybe 15 times over 8 years). I capitulated to the will of her desire to placate his feelings and thusly complied.

So yesterday she comes to my house for a hug after being completely inconsolable over the phone because she feels guilty. She feels guilty that she brought another misogynistic predator into my life. She feels guilty because when I was sexually assaulted at 5 years old in my own bed she hired the babysitter that committed the assault. She feels guilty that we parted ways when I was 16 and I went off into the world to live on my own. She feels guilty that when I broke up with a boyfriend at 18yrs old (6(+/-) month relationship) I was attacked in the dark in my apartment building then beaten, raped, and then left bleeding and naked unconscious on the street. She feels guilty that I had to have an abortion to maintain my own sanity after said rape.

But most of all she feels guilty for as she says "I brought an angel into a world of demons and saw it with such rosy glasses, with such blinders due to burying my own CSA experience - I believed I was protecting you". And she feels guilty that when I told her at 12yrs old about what happened to me at 5yrs she said to me "at least it wasn't your father". I don't blame her for any of those things and comforted her while she apologized and I continuously told her that she is not responsible for my experiences.

Four males (my grandfather, Billy the 16yr old boy that assaulted me at 5yrs, Michael the rapist, and mom's almost ex) directly and indirectly have impacted my mother's sense of the world today and retroactively judges herself and feels like a terrible parent - those are encounters with individuals that caused damage. Focusing on that though ignores all of the sexism she's encountered in her professional life and career and as a single parent. She's a brilliant person she has her doctorate (earned at my age) and has experienced all the trappings of being an attractive intelligent professional woman. She doesn't hate men even though she's going through a brutal emotional experience right now, she's keeping her sense of fairness in tact. Notably, her socialization still coerces her constantly to put herself in the backseat even when teaching to demand the seat up front. She taught me to: walk it off if I wasn't bleeding or physically broken, create and enforce personal boundaries (she's the exception in relation to my boundaries though which I am still trying to shake), take responsibility for my words and actions, support myself financially, be responsible for my own happiness. She is a really good mom.

Men as a class oppress women as a class today. As an individual woman in the private sphere I am seen as being private property ("the wife of DH" - even by my actual father as well as contractors and salespeople, the mortgage company won't speak to me about changing our loan terms unless my DH is present even though I'm first in position on the mortgage and primarily financially responsible, etc.). In the public sphere I am seen as being public property (no legal right to privacy from males when I change in the gym, words to describe my sex are being hijacked, random men come up and touch my body without my consent or legal recourse, and so on and so forth). Men call me baby, honey, sweetie, sexy, sugar, pumpkin - I am an infant, I'm an object, and I am food. Men call my DH boss, chief, sir, gentleman, dude, man, brother, etc. Men force past me, run into me, step on my feet, elbow me in the face when working through a crowd. Men get out of DH's way - they make a path for him, they take a step back or turn to accommodate, they excuse themselves when making their way through a crowd.

Good men, men who see the need for feminism understand that the way we navigate the world is different and the way we are treated while navigating the world is also different. Women's vulnerability is heightened in relation to and compared with men's. One punch to my face by a large man could literally kill me.

I am a survivor of child sexual abuse I am a survivor of rape and the necessary recourse (abortion). I'm a survivor of sexial harassment at work - I have lost three jobs (two professional) for refusing sexual advances by superiors at those institutions. Most men attempt to infantilize me because I'm short of stature, full of energy/animated communicator (I get told I'm sassy, firecracker, cute, sexy), and because most seem to not be able to think with their brain when they talk to me (arousal due to my "vivaciousness" it is my fault or so I'm told) shut down their ability to listen to me as a professional/peer/individual or because they see me as an object. Sometimes their inability to communicate with me is really beneficial in my professional field (negotiations especially) but mostly it's really really irritating with a side of demoralization.

Right that NAM are a threat (or misogynists or rapists or murders etc.) BUT AMA a potential threat. My DH is not a threat and is pretty fantastic IMO but not because he's perfect - because when I bring something to his attention (sexist or otherwise) he takes the time to consider it and comes back hours, days, or sometimes weeks later with a well-thought-out perspective of which we can then discuss the subject on a deeper level. I used to believe that none of my male friends were a threat until recently I had undisputable in your face proof (he in a fit of rage choked his wife of 30yrs - my BFF - to unconsciousness in front of their seven-year-old daughter).

Just like men as a class, men as individuals don't have to commit physical acts of violence to oppress women - they can do it with their words and how they model behavior for their sons and nephews et al. Some men are teaching boys to hate, oppress, and subjugate women and unfortunately some women worship at the altar of men's power further showing boys that dominating women is how to be a man.

I don't hate men as a group. To be honest I don't hate anyone. I hate mushrooms, asparagus, and squash; dairy and beef hate me... however, I love cows and they seem to like me too.

I am a feminist, a pragmatist, and a dreamer. I am strong and I have a voice.

Words are not violence how people internalize their meaning and act on their perspective can be violent. But I am internal locus of control kind of person and don't care what anybody thinks of me beyond those that I love. I leave the validation seeking individuals to validating each other so I can focus on maintaining (and gaining) my and future girls/women's rights (exclusive of all males regardless of how they identify).