Munroe Bergdorf sacked by l'oreal

[Biddlyboo]

Has anyone seen this news story today? The irony that a mtt transgender goes off on one about race when the exact same thing can be said about men's privilege and society standing on the backs of women...
Sorry, just made me a bit
www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/41127404/loreal-sacks-first-transgender-model-munroe-bergdorf
Can't do clicky link!

Yeah, alright then Kanye

@PricklyBall
Seriously, I think it's the only way to keep a debate on track.

I think there are some differences here: one can not really eschew white privilege nor escape having been socialised in possession of it. (There are some difficult areas here, but I think that's generally true.)

This isn't really the case of a transwoman who has obviously been socialised as a man and is/was physically a man too. However, whilst that remains as a legacy in terms of thought / expectation etc, some of the male privilege will have been set aside by choice. If someone - in whatever stage of transition - begins to present themselves to the world as a women, they begin to suffer some of the same oppressive tendencies because people will no longer perceive them as they once did. Increased barriers, fewer opportunities, increased aggression. Etc Etc.

In short, they may have had male privilege and been shaped by it. But that's no longer the case.

A lot of who we are depends upon what we believe other people see. (Johari Window type shizz). Monroe sees herself as black. And she sees herself as a woman.

We are accountable for how we see her.

@MotherPeresA the dailymail tried to silence the Cambridge student who made similar comment and twisted it about a month ago. He was investigated and found not to be in the wrong.

This is not about monroe's racism and what it means to be a woman or boundaries he does not know he is crossing that belongs to only men. But what it means to be black and the new "you can't say our society is racist Don't you know all lives matter. Why don't you just shut up already. Slavery ended, like, 200 years ago, why are still complaining about racism? I am not racist, I give to charity that support African children, you know. A white woman died for your cause, can't you be thankful!" That's a new favourite one I have come across. Etc

'L’Oreal have acted particularly cowardly and shown us their true colours, and they must be held accountable for their lip-service to diversity and failure to do anything but uphold the status quo.'

From the Independent.

Of course they are only playing lip service to diversity. They're a multi national business. It's just a marketing campaign. They couldn't care less.

He's right though isn't he? White people are racist. We aren't aware of our privilege all the time. We uphold the racist systems just by doing nothing about them or being part of them. Our thoughts and beliefs about PoC are shaped by a racist society. And whilst many of us try and fight that we rarely completely succeed. We don't really understand what it's like to be brown skinned and have abuse directed at you because of that or have people pre-form thoughts about your behaviour and abilities because of the colour of our skin. We don't have to wade through that mire. We don't have to notice the subtle, insidious, low-level racism everywhere.

He was doing a class analysis on his oppressors. Not sure why that is wrong. Is it because it hurts our sensibilities that we are considered part of the problem? Because we are whether we like it or not.

Just like I've never met a man who isn't sexist. He may not be sexist all the time but he will inevitably be unaware of his privilege at some point. Like all those men who don't want to challenge sexist remarks (but expect us to). Part of the problem.

But what it means to be black and the new "you can't say our society is racist Don't you know all lives matter. Why don't you just shut up already. Slavery ended, like, 200 years ago, why are still complaining about racism? I am not racist, I give to charity that support African children, you know. A white woman died for your cause, can't you be thankful!" Yes this.

I could do without the wording 'existence' because some people will take that the wrong way because they thing race is biologically real. But in terms of social construction, the notion of there being a white race only exists because of white supremacy and racism.

But yes, of course white people are racist. And it's not because we don't understand.

I'm wondering if there is more to this than meets the eye.

Munroe is described as a transactivist, not just a transwoman.

My entire experience of transactivists is they can't keep their misogyny and aggression under wraps for very long.

It's a very high-profile move for L'Oreal to make. In the current climate, they would have struggled to fire Munroe on the basis of things they were saying about the trans ideology. Perhaps this was the lesser of two evils.

Munroe was very specific. They didn't say white privilege, they said racism, they said all white people, not white people as a class, and they emphasised that.

L'Oreal might have been reaching, but perhaps that was the only way.

Firing someone who is both black and trans for talking about racism is a very bold move unless you're pretty sure you want them gone.

Munroe was very specific. They didn't say white privilege, they said racism, they said all white people, not white people as a class, and they emphasised that.

Worse; she said "ALL" white people are guilty of racial violence

The thing is, POC are specifically qualified to talk about racism. L'Oreal know that.

Transactivists are not specifically qualified to talk about womanhood. And when they hired Munroe perhaps L'Oreal did not realise that it's an issue.

Knowing what transactivists are like, Munroe would have centred themself in womanhood like there's no tomorrow.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out. If Munroe goes on the war path, there may be more to come out.

I'd be interested to know Mother PeresA view on Rachel Dolezal, given that they think male but not white privilege can be given up voluntarily.......

The overall tenor of what Munroe said is completely reasonable imo, and they should not have been sacked for it.
There are bits I don't agree with - I think the expansion of the word violence beyond physical violence is really unhelpful, but nonetheless this is a shift in meaning that is happening more widely and it's fairly clear Bergdorf was using the wider meaning, not making out white people are all going around beating up black.

I will not be compelled to lie, therefore I will not use incorrect pronouns. I do avoid using the accurate pronouns to be kind and use alternative language if I am communicating directly with a such a person. If not, I will use correct language. That is my position, others will differ

Also Terf is an insult and you are unlikely to persuade people to your view while you insult them. Just a hint

Firing someone who is both black and trans for talking about racism is a very bold move unless you're pretty sure you want them gone.

YY. I wondered if there were more to it too. It's not really what organisations do.

Of course they are only playing lip service to diversity. They're a multi national business. It's just a marketing campaign. They couldn't care less.

And YY. I don't understand in that case why they would fire this POC for commenting on white privilege. Being cynical it's not a very PR friendly move.

It's a very high-profile move for L'Oreal to make. In the current climate, they would have struggled to fire Munroe on the basis of things they were saying about the trans ideology. Perhaps this was the lesser of two evils.

Interesting theory.
So you mean, firing a transwoman because of misogyny was too dangerous, so they instead used their white privilege to fire a black person for saying something against white people, even though this wasn't really the actual problem?

Sounds fairly plausible. After all, everyone with a functioning brain knows that male privilege is alive and well and that transwomen have it.
So the only way you could get away with firing a black transwoman would be to use white privilege to neutralize the male privilege.

The overall tenor of what Munroe said is completely reasonable imo, and they should not have been sacked for it.

Well, yes, it is a reasonable thing for a black person to say. The irony comes in when you consider that person is a transwoman. A male person who is wearing woman-face on a daily basis.

Pot and kettle and so on.

eriskegal she did more than comment on white privilege. She accused all white people of racial violence. They've earned/retained a lot of business firing her for those comments, more than they've lost I suspect.

I must admit, I start from a position of scepticism over virtually anything a transactivist would say. Especially in terms of their viewpoints over social issues, etc.

The level of self delusion and cognitive dissonance required to be a TRA, precludes them from rational thought, imo.

And I make a distinction for genuine trans-people with gender dysphoria. They're not illogical.

I hope that there is more to this than meets the eye. My best bet it is part of what is going on now and it's in L'Oréal's interest to keep their customers which is majority white women. This is the very group that wants to distance themselves from racism and it came through loud and clear last three weeks.

By the way, they are trying to be all inclusive because they bought out one of the biggest black beauty brands. Most black people will not even know dark and lovely was bought out by them, so the boycott they are all talking about is pointless. It's more effective when white women do it and they could have easily done it because they can. The power is there in numbers for white women.

The op would have had a different response if she hadn't used racism as the butt of the irony/joke ha ha

I agree with people who actually think Munroe is right.

FYI, Cheryl Cole was found NOT GULTY of racism, but was convicted of assault. The woman she assaulted changed her story THREE TIMES and only added the racism accusations after giving an interview to the press. Cheryl kept the same story the whole time. Cheryl really doesn't deserve the racist name tag.

Worse; she said "ALL" white people are guilty of racial violence

Quite Mctufty.

It's disturbing that anyone would agree with her.

Wrongly accusing a whole ethnic group of awful acts on the basis of the colour of their skin should be something we've moved a LONG way past by now. There's a name for it. It's a very great shame the discourse is no more sophisticated than this.

So the only way you could get away with firing a black transwoman would be to use white privilege to neutralize the male privilege. The irony of all irony. This is what is intriguing about this board. People being happy on this board with religious fundamentalist together with trump fighting for their own cause but because it suits people on this board, it is all well and good. Let's all be tougher on this and go along with it and yet they will not stop there but erode women rights too.
Then L'Oréal using their white privilege (if there is nothing more to it) to stir up racist tension. On this board that is ok as long as it blocks trans people.

Do you see why the comment up thread happen the way it did? It's because this whole thing is full bullshit and people wonder why "all white peoples are racist is a thing". We all know it's does not mean everybody. People wonder why lost of black people wrote many articles stating this very fact.

If someone says all white people, that means all white people. If they just say white people, that means white people as a class.

But all white people are racist, so I don't have a problem with it.

t's because this whole thing is full bullshit and people wonder why "all white peoples are racist is a thing". We all know it's does not mean everybody.

Quencher

"All green people" DOES mean "everybody who is green". That's EXACTLY what it does mean. Which is why it's so problematic.

It's condemning individuals' character by reference to their skin colour and their skin colour alone.