I am Jazz. ***Trans content. Please do not open if you just want to post insults or whinge about another trans thread***

[CosmicPineapple]

I am Jazz is a reality show focusing on the journey of a teenage transgirl/woman whos parents supported transition from aged 5 and has been on TV since aged 6.
Now aged 16.

I don't watch the show as I strongly disagree with everything about it. However I briefly saw a clip of the next episode as the tv happened to be on the channel that airs I am Jazz I had been watching say yes to the dress and it was about dating.

Jazz goes to a sort of speed dating event where everyone is sat in the dark. Jazz wants a relationship, which is normal for a teenager however Jazz does not tell the boys/men that they are trans and in fact male.
As they are in darkness Jazz feels that if they get to know each other without the barrier of seeing each other/being trans it may lead to a relationship.

For me this is totally wrong.
Why should it be ok for Jazz or anyone to withold the truth about a very important aspect of who they are?
Plus I would imagine there to be some very upset and angry teenage boys when they find out they have been duped and lied to.

I remember a good few years ago where a man killed his partner after finding out on a TV show that they were trans. There have been a few similar murders over the years.
I am in no way condoning the murder or harm of another person I am just highlighting the danger that can come if you lie about the sex you are and it should not be encouraged as no relationship can survive on lies.

I just wondered what other peoples thoughts are on the subject of lying about your sex to the people you date?

YetAnother - there are lots of bits of research linked to in the article I posted yesterday about the effects of Lupron on young people's health

Agree - but it's a mishmash of conflicting studies many of which have small samples and not all of which consider the target population.

There are dozens of threads of people accusing one another of transphobia, that's what I meant. Lots of people on here don't agree that a person can be born in the wrong body. If an intelligent adult feels this way and wants to change that, that's up to them and I won't challenge them. A child though is an entirely different case.

I think I get what Mala means. Thats why I put so much in my title because laods of very good trans threads have been filled with not another trans thread you are all transphobic^ type posts which derail and end in deletion of the thread.

I am very greatful for the knowlegable posters who have given so much info and the thread has evolved with intelligent discussion and valid questions regarding the transing of children.

Thank you

Everyone, including me, are wary of disputing the stats. No one wants to be responsible for people minimising suicide in kids!

What I'd be most interested to find is a study that showed that medical and/or surgical intervention had a demonstrable positive effect on suicidal ideation. I suspect that there are higher rates of SI amongst populations that are transgender (and likely gay/lesbian too). In fact the research does support this. BUT it is not clear whether there are confounding factors (i.e. - comorbidity, lack of particular supports that don't include medical interventions, etc.) and there is no consideration of environmental factors (i.e. people talking about suicide near them, being on the internet and thinking they need to report suicidal ideation to get treatment, etc.). Also, the studies I have seen only compare trans young people to 'normal' populations, not to (say) adolescents who have been diagnosed with other similar conditions such as anorexia.

I don't want to derail this thread either, as it's about Jazz and the issues around children 'transitioning'.
I just found this thread enlightening, as I never thought about the physical impact on blocking puberty, and the after effects of that.

There are dozens of threads of people accusing one another of transphobia, that's what I meant.

There are lots of threads where there is disagreement. But a lot of it is pretty tame compared to the general AIBU battlefield.

Why do the TAs not want genuine, non biased, research
I know drug companies stand to profit but who else is driving this ideology

I just think if the information in this thread stops an adult trans person thinking "if only my parents had listened to me when I was a child, I could have become a more passable woman or had an easier adolescence", or stops a parent from thinking they are doing the right thing by acting on their child's wishes to be the opposite sex, or even from feeling guilty if they choose not to do anything about it, then that is wholly positive.

Why do the TAs not want genuine, non biased, research

I don't know yes I do-, but back to the 'wrong side of history" I'm positive that there will be some very sad legal cases in the next decade or so.

I'm positive that there will be some very sad legal cases in the next decade or so.

Against who?
Parents?
Doctors?
Both?

What support will there be for Jazz once they are no longer useful cash cow?

And the media industry too.

She'll be on screens for a while yet. There'll be documentaries about why the documentaries were a bad idea.

Then documentaries about why those documentaries-about-documentaries were a bad idea too.

Drug companies.

Possibly doctors or providers.

I'm not sure about parents.

People only sue people with money.

www.oregonlive.com/transgender-health/2017/07/about_a_boy_jays_life_as_a_tra.html?src=longreads

This came up on my FB feed today - an extremely troubled/mentally unwell girl having her breasts surgically removed at 15/16.

Sometimes 'transing' seems to be more about removing erogenous zones and keeping trans women as children. I am sure many Victorian doctors would recognise the theory behind the medicine.

"Most children go through a gender confusion/experimentation phase, as early as 3 or 4"

My dc talked about being a cat between 3-5. Always wanted to play being a cat with me or her sibling, would sit in the laundry basket pretending it as her bed and make cat sounds driving me up the wall. Kids just enact stuff they go through. Dc wanted to be a cat and sometimes really felt like a cat whatever that might feel like.

According to trans ideology I should have pushed for dc to get a tail and cat ears at the very least.

I am not making this up dc was totally into this. --Thank heavens not any longer-.

These children can't sue the hospitals that treat them. The contracts the parents/child sign at the hospitals exclude responsibility for any future negative results of gender surgery.

Maybe they will sue the government for watching this predictable train wreak happening and not stopping it.

Poor children, they deserved clear parenting which told them to wait until 18yo (minimum) until doing such permenant damage to their bodies.

These children can't sue the hospitals that treat them. The contracts the parents/child sign at the hospitals exclude responsibility for any future negative results of gender surgery.

surely that can't be true? people sue hospitals all the time for things that go wrong, surely they don't have a more in depth waiver for doing experiments on children's bodies than they have for regular surgery?

And what about suing for going ahead with the procedure in the first place when the children weren't old enough to consent? it would only take one trial lawsuit to set a precedent.

It would be interesting what side people who drank the Kool aid would come down on in such a case: the doctors who performed the procedures on children that the TRAs and allies were pushing for, but that have been proven harmful, or the child victim tearing down the trans edifice.

I imagine there would be a lot of backpedalling, and people claiming that they had always thought it was wrong.

This was from a twitter thread that has since been deleted.

It was from the UK and the guy posting it said he wouldn't name and shame the clinic as he didn't want to be sued.

If nothing else, it's a huge arse covering exercise!

Hi there, thanks for this thread. I started looking into this issue about 2 or 3 years ago, and have taken a break from it because it was becoming overwhelming for me, and I seemed to be in a state of perpetual rage about it, which isn't very healthy.

But ... this issue is huge, complex and accelerating at alarming speed towards a really, massively fucked up future in which women and children are going to lose out big time.

My introduction to the trans narrative was on another forum when women were having a humorous discussion about the way in which men patronise women - started by a woman who regularly drives HGVs and was fed up with men who insisted on standing behind her vehicle and "helpfully" waving their arms around as she was trying to park the bloody thing. Discussion had got to the point where women were making comments to the effect that you don't need a penis to drive a lorry, operate a power drill etc, and then some poster started commenting that we were being cis-sexist and transphobic because not all men have a penis and not everyone with a penis is man. I'd never come across such bizarre thinking before, and so I started googling. Found Gendertrender, 4th Wave Now, Purple Sage and other bloggers who were talking about it. A real eye opener!

For those who're wondering on this thread about why Jazz wasn't told that there wouldn't be enough penile material to create a "neo vagina", I believe it's because no one thought far enough ahead to anticipate this problem. Jazz, and other children in this situation are being experimented on - medically and socially. It is child abuse, no doubt about it, and I also foresee a great many law suits in the future from these children - if they make it that far. The medications they are on from the age of about 9 or earlier are not kind to their bodies, and their mental health, already quite fragile I would think, will take a massive knock when they are faced with the reality that what they were promised is just not possible. No one can change sex.

Who here read Enid Blyton's Famous Five as a child? I did and I wanted to be George, the tomboy. Imagine what would happen to George now. No more a tomboy, but a trans boy, pumped full of hormones and promised magical surgery to make her a man.

Jen adds: "It's hard being a teenager anyway,(let alone) to have to wait until you're 16 for your body to develop. It's upsetting to think all her peers are going to be talking about periods and developing breasts and wearingbras and things and she will be waiting - a really tough thing for her to go through."

On phone so can't bold sorry.

A quote from a mother of a MTT and it just struck me as selfish and completely delusional.

No mention in the article (BBC) that the girls (now known as peers) have to suck up a penis in their spaces but even worse they'll want to talk about their naturally developing bodies.

The child in question is 9!! I despair I really do.

Discussion had got to the point where women were making comments to the effect that you don't need a penis to drive a lorry, operate a power drill etc, and then some poster started commenting that we were being cis-sexist and transphobic because not all men have a penis and not everyone with a penis is man.

And that's where me and my sympathy part company.

Which is why these threads do often get very angry.

Sympathy for trans people cannot be something one has at all costs.

Inclusion, sympathy, help and support has furthered a political agenda that will, and does, force women back into the very position that they have been trying to change for years.

It's so quick and it's so effective. Who would have thought that 10 years ago calling a man a man would have you deleted from online media, shouted at, no platformed and called a bigot.

Yet it does. Often by really quite reasonable, decent people. Because language matters. It always has. It can, and evidently has, changed the way people behave, the way they think. It's incredibly powerful.

You can no longer start a sentence with the 'women'. 'Women are unrepresented in the media, women are unrepresented in the government, women need abortion rights, women's sport, women's pay, women's degree statistics, medical statistics, crime statistics.'

Women can drive HGVs, just as well as men..

Because the word woman is not limited to women any longer. So at the moment, you have people calling you cissexist and transphobic for suggesting it is.

But if recent years have taught us anything, you will soon no longer be called cissexist and transphobic because everyone will stop making the distinction, for fear of reprisals. And will be consoling themselves with the thought that they are being progressive and inclusive.

That's when you get to pregnant people, chest feeding, front hole. Nothing to denote that it is only the biological class of women that does these things.

Even if you think we have to make a distinction somehow, we will be back to being bleeders, breeders and feeders.

Society treats women differently to men. The only distinction necessary is that you are a woman, a biological woman. Women know full well, there is nothing stopping them being completely equal to men. We can drive the HGVs, we can make political decisions, we can run companies, countries, etc.

If words are taken away from us to classify women, on a biological basis, not only can we not talk about it, legally it doesn't mean anything.

Women will be doing all those things much more. Running countries, companies, breaking Olympic records, except they will be women with a penis.

Meanwhile the bleeders, breeders and feeders will be women with a vagina.

A woman doesn't need a vagina to qualify for a woman's scholarship, business loan, diversity statistics, FGM statistics, to campaign for access to abortion, because...

...not all men have a penis and not everyone with a penis is man.

Who here read Enid Blyton's Famous Five as a child? I did and I wanted to be George, the tomboy. Imagine what would happen to George now. No more a tomboy, but a trans boy, pumped full of hormones and promised magical surgery to make her a man.

My sister was a George - she really wanted to be mistaken for a boy, dressed like a boy, and so on. There were all sorts of family dynamics going on which prompted this.

She's the most beautiful accomplished woman now with children and a very happy life.

I dread to think what would happen to her now. Really dread to think what is happening to current Georges.

I don't think there's a woman alive who wouldn't understand how a girl could get very resentful of the restrictions placed upon her growing up, that don't apply to boys.

E.g. from personal experience:

Guide camp - going in the woods, identifying leaves, making washing up bowl stands out of twigs.

Scout camp - swimming races in the lake, building aerial runways from trees, competitive games.

At the time it was irritating, now I see it as just sexist. I assume things have changed somewhat, but I'm using it as an illustration.

Where I think it goes further for women who vehemently want to be regarded as male, is when there's trauma attached to it. Often it's about the power dynamic, where she is trying to escape what she regards (correctly) as a vulnerable position due to her being female.

Women who want to be regarded as male do it to escape.

Men who want to be regarded as women, do it to achieve - what they see as a womanly role. This never involves writing Christmas cards, doing the housework, taking the children to school, and looking after elderly parents, though.

It's their idea of women seen through their male eyes. Hence the hypersexual appearance of a lot of transwomen if they're AGP or otherwise, the 'demure modesty' look. Again, a female stereotype that many men find attractive.

A transwoman on here last year said he feels he can only be 'vibrant', presenting as a woman. It seems they are looking to expand the way they can feel, whereas women who do it are looking to reduce the way they do feel.

Yes, Datun I think your post hits nail on head.

What I keep asking is, Why don't men just "expand the bandwidth" of what it means to be a man, male, and masculine?

But of course, the problem there is that under patriarchy, to be male/masculine is partially defined by being not-female/feminine. I think that's part of the explanation for homophobia: if a man is attracted to men, then he must be, in some way, feminine. Therefore to be shunned.

And so on ...

Jen adds: "It's hard being a teenager anyway,(let alone) to have to wait until you're 16 for your body to develop. It's upsetting to think all her peers are going to be talking about periods and developing breasts and wearingbras and things and she will be waiting - a really tough thing for her to go through

Oh fuck that. Yeah - peers are going to be talking about disabling cramps, blood on clothes and what the fuck do we do on swimming day. Bras, maybe, although I always hated the things, but there's the whole embarrassment of having boys see them through clothes, ping the back strap, being an actual girl and not having breasts (and being teased) or being an actual girl and having (big) breasts and being teased or realising that this might lead to a life of reduced ability to play some sports or to some pain.

I'm fucked off with womanhood and girlhood being reduced to a romanticised fetish and fantasy.