Son not welcome at sewing workshop

[Cheryl39]

Just tried to sign up for me, my 16 year old daughter and 18 year old son to join a one day sewing workshop and the tutor was very unwelcoming about my son joining. She said the workshops are mainly attended by women and the group as a whole might be uncomfortable talking about women's issues with a young man present. I feel really sad about this and so have not signed up.....is the tutor being discriminatory......what are your thoughts?

Could you discuss this with someone above the tutor to find out about the sewing group's ins and outs

I'd really like to hear from the OP again.....

If we're going to sanction gender segregated hobby groups then we have to accept men as well as women can say "you're not joining our group, it's for men only". I accept the need for gender-segregated groups in certain circumstances but not for hobbies.
I think it's lovely that an 18yo man wants to spend time with other sewers, and sad that the instructor is preventing it.

I would ask them specifically, do you have a reason for excluding a young man (because it's some kind of women's therapeutic session) or is it just discrimination?

I'm being generous here because on the face of it, it sounds completely narrow minded and shocking lack of diversity and inclusion awareness.

I bet there are a hardcore of retired/non employed women who have nothing better to do than go to these classes regularly and gossip about their health problems, and are too narrow minded to welcome someone of different age and gender. I think a tip off to the people running the course if it's a local authority or college.

RolfNotRudolf

Most sensible woman won't mind a man joining their group.

I don't think it's really about that. It's about the type of man who wants to join because he has an agenda.

Men joining feminist groups to complain that their male problems aren't centred, for instance.

This would never have been much of a problem before, because men joining stereotypically female groups would have been interested in the hobby and just been assimilated.

It's this new push to deliberately, and purposely change the dynamic of the group.

Offline, it probably affects very few people in terms of genuine women's groups gathering for a hobby.

But women wanting to talk about feminism is definitely being targeted. It's like a magnet.

Even yesterday, a poster's comment was deleted on the Jeremy Corbyn Facebook page for objecting to his push for self identification. She wasn't abusive or rude, just objected.

I wonder if the OP hasn't come back because she didn't get the answers she was expecting.......

surely it is simple - there are some things in life where it is logical for men or women to do it together without the other sex there...

and then there is the rest of the world where it is irrelevant

I think that sewing just might come into that second group...

... there seem to have been a rush of threads about anti-man behaviour in the last day or so where the same thing has happened.

This one was a bit surreal, especially with the mention of 'periods'.

Datun I agree with your points - I think that excluding the other sex from hobby groups is discriminatory.

Bert - Why speculate as to why OP hasn't come back fgs? Are you hoping to goad her into reposting? People have a life outside MN. She may or may not come back, That's her choice.

Of course it's fine for her to not come back
But it is also OK to speculate why not, surely, when the post is somewhat unusual?

The OP said it was a one day sewing workshop. There are 100s of these advertised , costing in the range of £50- £100. Some of them even have photographs of men participating.

If the "one day workshop" is really a front for the sort of groups some of you are going on about then the organiser is an idiot.

men as well as women can say "you're not joining our group, it's for men only".

This happens a reasonable amount; a few members clubs (including one a number of well known men are members of, The Garrick Club, which consistently votes against "allowing" women to join) and some golf clubs for example.

The op was here at half past one this morning. Maybe they had to go to sleep then get to work?

If we're going to sanction gender segregated hobby groups then we have to accept men as well as women can say "you're not joining our group, it's for men only". I accept the need for gender-segregated groups in certain circumstances but not for hobbies.

So, if it's a 'measure yourself and learn to make bras' course, you don't think there's an argument that women could be allowed to do that without men?

Do you think there's a difference in dynamic between me attending a car mechanics course as the only woman, and a man attending a sewing course as the only man?

From my experience (as someone who has been the only woman in male dominated course, and also witnessed having a single man in a female dominated course) it's a very different experience - very much different.

@Datun I guess our group is private then, despite being advertised in public spaces (Facebook, local churches and mosques etc). Funny how we all think it's public.

Apparently there is a group called the Men's Shed Association where they all meet up to make and repair things.

It seems like a very good idea.

Hi, I'm back. I appreciate all your comments and hope you will all bare with me as I am new to mumsnet and posting messages. I was undecided where to post my thread in the first instance but I'm glad I did put it here because you are clearly such a lively and articulate group and because I feel sex role divisions and discrimination from both sides is a feminist issue. There are of course lots of different types of feminists and I hope there is room for all of us and that debate amongst us is to be encouraged. I personally don't think feminism is just about women fighting for women's rights. Of course this is an important aspect of feminism but to me feminism should also welcome men and be about striving for equality for all. Gender is fluid and gender role stereotyping doesn't serve many individuals of all sexes and society as a whole may benefit from celebrating our diversity. Making feminism exclusively about women encourages a backlash against it. My son is a feminist and he doesn't want anybody to be told how to be a male or female or what interests they should have or be allowed to follow. The tutors arguement that he would affect the dynamics of the group is an interesting point, because I think all individuals attending a group affect the dynamics of that group. I definitely affect group dynamics because I am quite questioning of things like this. I am challenged by others ideas and like exploring my own very contradictory nature.

'Making feminism exclusively about women encourages a backlash against it.'

Feminism is exclusively about women and girls.

Whatever women and girls do, there will always be a backlash against them attempting to gain autonomy and rights. There's no way of trying to end thousands of years of oppression without there being a backlash.

Cheryl gender roles are indeed a load of nonsense. But feminism is for and about women and girls, and does not and should not include men and boys. Backlash you say...there's already a massive backlash, with men attacking women by claiming womanhood for themselves. You're basically saying we shouldn't exclude them from feminism or they'll come and get us. Well fuck that.

My son is a feminist and he doesn't want anybody to be told how to be a male or female or what interests they should have or be allowed to follow.

He's quite correct and I hope he's able to pursue his interest in sewing and whatever else he wants to do.

to me feminism should also welcome men and be about striving for equality for all.

I personally think feminism should welcome men and boys who are genuinely supportive, as your son hopefully is. I don't think it should go out of its way to welcome men or make men feel comfortable. I have feminist male friends (and relatives) but I'm actively trying not to go out of my way to make them feel comfortable around feminist discussions (as I think I do sometimes). I think it's about "equality for all" but it's women and girls who are unequal to men and boys in society as things stand - the ways in which men have inequality (family courts are often cited) are grounded in sexism (against women) and outdated notions of "gender roles" which we're pushed into. Feminism has to centre women.

From what you've said I can't see why your son wasn't allowed to join the sewing workshop and it seems quite unfair - I hope it won't put him off.

"I personally don't think feminism is just about women fighting for women's rights. "

What's it about then, men? The rights of donkeys? Women can have anything for themselves can they, even feminism has to be shared with men.

Why don't you or your son set up your own sewing club?

Can't, women can't have anything for themselves.

Do you think there's a difference in dynamic between me attending a car mechanics course as the only woman, and a man attending a sewing course as the only man?

I think it is utterly ridiculous to make these sorts of distinctions in courses designed to teach skills.

The one day sewing workshops do stuff like cushions not hand sewn lingerie.