"Don't walk home alone"

[NoLoveofMine]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40399103

Ridiculous, victim blaming advice to women and girls anyway but this shows yet again how pointless it is to suggest.

I wonder if we're conditioned not to because of who is perpetrating this violence?

Good point. Yes, I think we are.

Here, we don't notice as much because it is a forum for women, but elsewhere, there'd be loads of complaining and possibly death threats for naming the perpetrators.

Indeed Vestal. I think that's why I've not done so previously - I discuss feminism a lot with everyone I know online and off and was aware of how much any naming of such a problem was jumped upon (not by friends but by some people). I have a feeling that even though the boys I'm friends with are supportive and listen I've been avoiding saying "male violence" sometimes so as not to offend, if that's the right term.

I've been avoiding saying "male violence" sometimes so as not to offend, if that's the right term.

'Alienate' might be more like it, perhaps?

Oh yes definitely Errol that's a more appropriate word. I suppose I've almost been grateful due to the misogyny which is rife amongst many boys I've come across that I've got to know well boys who are very keen on feminism so I've been wary about alienating them (even if it may not actually have).

It shouldn't be alienating to nice lads - after all, they may also be potential victims of male violence, so it's not exactly an 'us v them' thing.

I'm talking specifically about male violence against women and girls, street harassment, this kind of intimidation. I've talked about all these things with boys I know (as well as my dad and the elder of my brothers) and they've taken it all on board I just meant I've realised when reading this thread something I've sort of been aware of but not considered before - not using the term "male violence" to them.

I agree with your point about male violence more generally though and this being another reason we should name it - as it's also what men and boys are most at risk from.

Yes I agree with the male violence term.

I have older teenegers.
I am not comfortable with my 17 yo DD walking home alone.
I am not comfortable with my 19 yo DS being in certain areas of the city late on a Friday evening ( he knows to avoid) as it is full of drunk young men looking for violent action.

Both my kids modify their behaviour to keep safe.

That's not victim blaming, it's a precaution that they take because the world is sometimes not a safe place.

When I wrote in my post that I was going to start calling VAWG male violence, I felt compelled to add a caveat about the possibility of female violence being used as a counterpoint. And how I would address it.

It seems that several posters have come to the same conclusion - that actually calling it male violence, does indeed alienate people (men).

Which, in a way, is just more of the same conditioning that gets us into this in the first place.

So yes. Male violence it is. And yes, I will address any consequent disengagement. Rather that, than keep ignoring it.

datun- no it can't be ignored.

95% of UK prisoners who have committed violent crime are men ( despite the fact that violent women who are convicted are more likely to get a custodial sentence).

It's a harsh truth.

So yes. Male violence it is. And yes, I will address any consequent disengagement. Rather that, than keep ignoring it.

As will I Datun - it's so important not to ignore I feel and the posts on this thread on this have helped me realise this. It needs to be named for what it is.

Yes nolove. And just to be clear, I didn't mean I would ignore male violence, or naming it as such. I meant I would not ignore any subsequent disengagement. Even if it means being confrontational.

Which sounds very straightforward.

But in real life, the amount of male violence that goes on means you could be raising this point on an almost hourly basis.

Indeed Datun - I think that's the challenge but it's an important one. Not naming the issue is just another way of avoiding it in a way, even if I can see why we might do it. I can see how it'd be easy to become hesitant after raising the point regularly (which I could definitely invisage happening) but it's important more do so because this is how we start to see it for what it is.

Even though not all men are violent, all men carry the threat of violence. We know, as women, that we are physically weaker than men. We know not to antagonise a man, not to invite his annoyance or displeasure because, if it really comes to it, some men will use their physical strength against us. So, women are quiet and polite and don't make a fuss. Men, even 'good' men are often genuinely surprised and sort of...hurt when women aren't meek and mild - hence the idea of women being 'bossy' and 'abrasive.' They see even mild disagreement from women as women being 'aggressive' and needing to 'calm down' - we are in no way allowed to express any sort of negative feeling - we should always smile and be pleasant. Men experience even the mildest displeasure from a woman as an affront - they are not used to it, they don't expect it and on some level it signals to them they are not powerful enough, because the woman isn't as afraid as she should be. Hence the nonsense around 'male violence' - women are afraid to name it for fear of the reaction it'll get, men don't want to hear it because they know full well men are violent and even if they don't engage in violence themselves, they still reap the rewards that the threat of that violence gives them.

That's a brilliant post Sparrowhawk and perfectly put. There's not much I can add; the point about reaping rewards from male violence is very true - another way they do in my opinion is in the notion of "protecting" women and walking women home for example. A man is able to look thoughtful for doing so but he's only able to due to the risk and fear of male violence.

Another positive of naming it "male violence" is that it can prevent derailing when talking about feminism.

So the very valid point that men are more like to be victims of GBH/ABH by a stranger than women - yes, it's awful that happens to men, but it's still male violence.

What about men who are victims of domestic violence? Yes, it happens to men too. When it does it's still overwhelmingly male violence (gay partner, father, son, or - and this one pisses me off - the ex or current partner of their current or ex girlfriend).

Men are prostitutes too and suffer from gay bashing. Yes, male violence.

I've previously investigated crime statistics and although they have figures for convictions by sex, when it comes to looking at victims, it does not provide figures for sex of perpetrator. If we started a move to naming male violence then perhaps we could push for this to change.

I'm talking specifically about male violence against women and girls

Personally I would prefer that term to male violence which seems a bit nonspecific.

DH and I have been having a heated discussion with my DS14 who appears to hate Anita Sarkeesian re her remarks against the gaming community and some vid conference that happened recently. I have to admit I don't know her and her views v well but we got into a debate about feminism in general and his negative (limited) view of it because of her. He was entirely shocked when I told him I was a feminist.

So we have spoken at length and we have eventually 'agreed' that people are allowed to say what they want, even if offends someone else, as long as it is not abusive, threatening or violent. I understand she has been subject to a great deal of abuse and death threats and he knows that this is unacceptable. It took a while to get past the 'Yes I agree BUT', which was...'that's what online stuff is like now mum'. Eventually he agreed that there was no bno Buts were acceptable and that such behaviour should not ever be condoned and twitter etc need to take action. I know he hasn't done it btw

He's a good kid and a bit naive and really felt he personally and his allies in the gaming world were under attack. I feel that good conversation is the only way through this. It's been a lesson in civilised debate for him.

And as an aside, I think she is rather annoying and her support of the trans bathroom issue is misguided. The internet is scary and I was certainly a alarmed at my boy's views. It was a shocker and it took time for DH and I to talk him though it.

Sorry for derail, but I think the world is very confusing for kids

I'll never understand how folks like you can talk about keeping yourself safe out of one side of your mouth and use the other to 100% blame the attacker. If you truly thought the latter, the former is redundant.

No - you can still think the attacker is 100% guilty, but take precautions against being their next victim. You can never eliminate 100% of all crime (unless you're North Korea) - so protecting yourself to a reasonable extent is sensible. Having said that, I walk alone at night all the time.

So, women are quiet and polite and don't make a fuss. Men, even 'good' men are often genuinely surprised and sort of...hurt when women aren't meek and mild - hence the idea of women being 'bossy' and 'abrasive.' They see even mild disagreement from women as women being 'aggressive' and needing to 'calm down' - we are in no way allowed to express any sort of negative feeling - we should always smile and be pleasant.

I have literally never experienced this.
Then again, I've always been loud and Type-A, so I don't think anyone for a second expected me to be meek and quiet

Inigo, that's appalling. I'm really angry on your behalf (and come to think of it, on my own behalf too, as someone who quite often walks home alone in London and would like the Met, you know, to give a damn if a violent rapist is wandering my neighbourhood...)

Agree, brilliant post from MrsKCastle. This thread has been great and has really got me thinking about what I'll be teaching DD about rape.

Since adolescence I've ignored the advice to live under curfew. It's always got me really angry, and the eloquent posters on this thread have just made me understand why!!

I am so cool.

NoLove if that is a photo of you ask for it to be deleted. You post far too much personal information on here.

I've just walked home from a wine bar. I have spent my whole adult life walking home on my own in cities.

I'm not sure quite how I post far too much personal information about myself on here Lass. Yes it's me which is why I blurred out my friends before I posted it.

NoLove people don't post photos of themselves or their families on here. This is not Facebook. There are no privacy settings which is why anonymous user names are used.