"Don't walk home alone"

[NoLoveofMine]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40399103

Ridiculous, victim blaming advice to women and girls anyway but this shows yet again how pointless it is to suggest.

Tasers in baby girl's Bounty packs, I reckon

@gillybeanz because some people will use deviating from those scenarios to do exactly that..victim blame. And as a victim is hard to discern between well meaning safety advice and victim blaming bullshit. In many cases victims will consider the advice as reinforcement that the victim blamers are right.
Not just that but many in society use that advise as a way to limit and control women.. what they wear,what they do,when,how they behave,how they talk,how much they drink etc.

Sorry this may seem a bit dim, but doesn't this mean that calling such advice as victim blaming, we risk vital messages getting through.

When I was young we were warned against wearing revealing clothes, getting too drunk, etc etc . The things we were warned about still happened to those who hadn't heeded the warning the same as those who did.
We are still right to be warned about all dangers? aren't we?

Oh, please don't think I'm victim blaming btw.
I did say I told my ds the same, this was because of gangs and an early Police curfew on our streets at the time.

I struggle to see how warning people about certain scenarios is victim blaming.

I think it's because if you tell women they should never walk home alone especially knowing this is impossible it's suggesting it's their responsibility to avoid anything happening then if they were attacked when alone they might blame themselves as they'd remember being advised not to. They may also blame other women/girls who are attacked if walking alone. The advice also doesn't work as this incident and others like it show, including the example RebelRogue gave.

@gillybeanz I don't think you're victim blaming,i was just saying how that stuff gets twisted.
As for your other question.. I don't quite have the answer. Since rape is the only crime that results in such victim blaming and puts most/all responsibility on the victim,from it happening to securing a guilty verdict, I do wonder if advice on preventing other things would be a compromise.
So don't get shitfaced drunk because you might end up hurt,have an accident, lose your purse/phone , lose consciousness in a puddle of your own vomit,whatever.

Sorry if it doesn't make sense I'm still thinking it through.

P.s. Wouldn't touch the clothing issue with a barge pole though.

This is shocking but not unbelievable :(

I've always expected that if I ask for help I'll get it. Recently asked a woman member of staff for help in a bar as a man was harassing me and she radioed security. When security didn't turn up she laughed and said she hadn't called as we'd come in together so she thought it was fine. If woman won't help stand up with us what luck do we have at all.

Also ,it is more likely that a girl/woman will be assaulted/raped by someone she knows..and all this advice becomes moot,but what remains is the idea that somehow it could be prevented.

The clothes thing... I'm sure I've seen mentioned here and other places that the most common item a women is wearing when raped is jeans. I honestly don't think rapists target women based on what they're wearing. I think they look for opportunity and vulnerability before anything else.

I remember an awful case of a young woman who was brutally assaulted by the man who raped her. She was at a bus stop and he dragged her behind a hedge. He beat her around the head with a rock. Somehow she survived, amazingly. She was Muslim, and was wearing a headscarf and other non-revealing clothing. It's irrelevant what she was wearing.

I struggle to see how warning people about certain scenarios is victim blaming.

The victim blaming is in how it is done.

"Don't walk home alone" is worthless. If you walk home in the company of a rapist, you are more in danger than if you just had walked alone.

Besides, most adult women are well aware that men rape. They might want to walk home alone regardless, because if you wanted complete safety from rape, you'd have to commit suicide, as even staying home is not safe.

The only thing I warn other women about is meeting males they want to get romantically involved with alone, as date rape is a danger most underestimate.

Stranger rape, on the other hand, doesn't really need talking about, except when you are talking to young girls. To whom you should give accurate information, not some ominous warning about "walking home alone at night".

Sorry to hear that WheresTheEvidence - you would really hope people in such jobs would look out for others especially when asked for help. I hope you were able to get rid of the man.

What's also chilling about this case is that two men clearly discussed this and decided to approach women with the intention of attacking them. Either one of them felt comfortable enough to suggest it or it mutually became something they decided they'd like to do.

Absolutely Assassinated. This case is a horrible example of that - also began in broad daylight: www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sex-fiend-followed-downs-syndrome-9031650

I do wonder if advice on preventing other things would be a compromise.

It is what I do when I worry about a naive girl and know she wouldn't listen to "You know, if you get shitfaced drunk those nice men you met that night might turn out to be opportunistic rapists".
Then "you do have a designated driver, do you?" will help ensure that there's at least some chance there's a sober woman in the group.

He beat her around the head with a rock. Somehow she survived, amazingly. She was Muslim, and was wearing a headscarf and other non-revealing clothing. It's irrelevant what she was wearing.

I dunno, a bike helmet might have been helpful. Or perhaps full plate armour.

There's this song about a street thug trying to rob a woman who happened to wear armour:

But for some reason, no one has given out the recommendation that all women wear chainmail shirts and learn how to use a broadsword.

I figure that'd be more effective than all those other warnings.

Not walking alone at night, not getting black out drunk, and keeping drinks under close supervision, are precautions that a woman can take given we know that extremely unpleasant men sadly exist.

Do you have any evidence that these precautions make a difference? Personally, I believe that walking alone at night can be safer than the alternatives, which might include walking home with a male acquaintance or getting into a cab with a male stranger.

Not getting blind drunk is good advice for anyone but I believe that more rapes happen when the woman is sober- at least according to this vile poster

Many rapes happen at home and are carried out by a family member of partner, so one of the most effective precautions we could take would be to live alone and not get into a relationship, yes this precaution is rarely suggested. Why is that? Why is it accepted that women should give up our freedom of movement by travelling together and only in daylight, but we should still be willing to enter into relationships with potential rapist?

Why is the focus always, ALWAYS on what we should do to not get raped and never on what men should do to stop raping people? As soon as any suggestions are made for men, like maybe don't stick your penis into a drunk women in a hotel room without speaking to her first, there is huge outrage. I've seen threads on here where posters are shocked by the idea that men should maybe check first before penetrating someone and yet it's taken for granted (by some) that women should his themselves away to stay safe.

(Just joking, though I do think a helmet helps loads more than a headscarf),

I do get the point of victim blaming and rape is always the blame of the rapist but I will still tell my sons not to get too shitfaced and to avoid walking up dark isolated streets on their own.

The reason is that I want them to take sensible precautions to lessen their chances of being mugged (more likely a scenario for a male than being raped).

As a parent I feel it is important to help them understand the dangers and to take steps to minimise this.

Why is the focus always, ALWAYS on what we should do to not get raped and never on what men should do to stop raping people?

Well, it is a reasonable assumption that rapists do not want to prevent rape. I don't believe you can educate rapists to see how rape is wrong. They know it's wrong, they just don't care.

Totally agree that we should ask what men who are not rapists could do to prevent other men from raping. And what the society as a whole could do. If rapists were adequately punished, (or, punished at all, really) that would help loads more than telling women to restrict their freedom.

A few years ago when I lived in London, I'd been to a friend's house for his Birthday, left at about 11, went back by public transport which took about an hour. Walking down the street, about 2 mins from my home, I felt a tap on my shoulder and there was an Asian man with his arm uplifted, holding a weapon ready to strike me. I screamed as loudly as I could and thank god he ran off.

When I got home we called the police whose attitude was appalling. I had a male flat mate and basically the ( 2 male ) officers said that he should have picked me up from the tube station, obviously assuming that he was my boyfriend. They were completely uninterested in investigating the case, despite the fact that there was a sex attacker wandering the street looking for a woman to assault. They also said, well I know you said he had a weapon, but he didn't actually do anything, did he? Well no, because I screamed so loudly other pp had already called the police by the time I had got home. They also said that I should have got a taxi home. Well if I could afford that every time I went out in London, I would have done that but that's £30-£40 a time.

I felt more aggrieved by the attitude of the police than the attacker TBH. Total victim blaming!

Great post MrsKCastle.

They also said that I should have got a taxi home. Well if I could afford that every time I went out in London, I would have done that but that's £30-£40 a time.

Perhaps we should start a petition that every woman gets about 1000 £ a month rape avoidance budget.

With this, we could pay for living alone, taking a taxi with a female driver every time we go out, and buy a full plate armour and broadsword.

It is what I do

That's good to know. Since DD is only 5, my advice for now is about personal space,saying no,the pants rule,not doing something just because someone says she has to etc. I haven't given a lot of thought how that advice should evolve into teenagehood. I just know what NOT to say from personal experience...most of the advice I got made me angry,stubborn,slut shamed and vulnerable.

As a parent I feel it is important to help them understand the dangers and to take steps to minimise this.

But if we're talking about understanding the dangers, 'don't walk home alone' really doesn't go anywhere near understanding how, where, when and why rape occurs.

My daughters are still of an age to be safely home tucked in bed, but I will certainly advise them not to get shitfaced. I intend to talk to them a lot about relationship red flags and how they don't ever have to engage in intimate activities that they don't want.

I'm not sure that I'll tell them not to walk home alone because it would seriously restrict their freedom but I'm not convinced it would actually make them safer.

Like many women here, I regularly walk home alone, and have done for as long as I've been an adult, in a variety of locations.

Guess who raped me? A boyfriend.

Women would do much better being warned not to be alone with men than not to walk home alone. I bet a lot more rapes would be prevented that way - but the outcry at the suggestion would be deafening.

Well, it is a reasonable assumption that rapists do not want to prevent rape. I don't believe you can educate rapists to see how rape is wrong.

You know what, I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm not trying to be goady, I am genuinely musing on the subject.

I know you're right with your first sentence, but I think that actually society's attitudes can change and that could change people's behaviour. I think there are rapists out there who justify it to themselves with 'it wasn't really rape' 'she wanted it really' 'she didn't say know, how was I to know she wasn't happy' etc etc. At the moment these views are being supported and excused by many people, women as well as men.

If we could get rid of the victim blaming and excusing, if we could change overall attitudes, then these men would have a harder time justifying their own actions. Other attitudes in society have changed- corporal punishment, drink driving, using car seats for children. Change takes a long time but it can happen- isn't it possible that the same could be true with the idea of enthusiastic consent?

If not, then the future really is bleak.

If not, then the future really is bleak.

I would not say that. There are feminist thinkers who have ideas on how to make it evolutionary disadvantageous to rape, in case it is genetic.

We don't have to be able to educate rapists to not rape.
It will suffice if we can get women to not tolerate rape when it happens to other women.

If rape was punished, then rapists would rape less, not because they would become better people, but they want to avoid punishment.