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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Don't walk home alone"

154 replies

NoLoveofMine · 25/06/2017 18:49

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40399103

Ridiculous, victim blaming advice to women and girls anyway but this shows yet again how pointless it is to suggest.

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SylviaPoe · 27/06/2017 11:18

In this case, it seems pertinent that these women were walking together through Manchester's gay village when these men approached them with the intention of attacking them.

Are people now saying two women can't go out together at night, to an area with gay nightclubs, lesbian bars etc, without a male escort?

NoLoveofMine · 27/06/2017 11:19

Exactly Sylvia.

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SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 27/06/2017 12:00

It's like when my DS comes to me to say (for example) 'when I do this, my finger hurts' and I reply 'well, don't do that then'

It didn't do anything to discover the source and doesn't actually fix the problem, it just hides it.

By giving this advice, you're just hiding the problem. Literally telling women to hide in taxis, at home, in groups to avoid catching the eye of a man who'll assault them, rather than actually dealing with the problem.

Popchyck · 27/06/2017 12:08

That's a good way of putting it, Spaghetti.

And then people berate women for not being "hidden" enough. Don't walk home alone. Oh you didn't? Well, you shouldn't be walking there in the evening with a friend anyway. Were you drinking alcohol? What were you wearing?

And this of course exacerbates the real problem of allowing rapists to hide in plain view in our society.

RebelRogue · 27/06/2017 15:45

This is anecdata but ironically enough, when I was assaulted (more than once) it was with people that i knew,I trusted or even worse they had a duty of care towards me like classmates,family,tutors etc.
I was not drunk,i was not alone,I wasn't wearing skimpy clothes,it was broad daylight.
Somehow it was still minimised,dismissed, laughed at. It was still my behaviour and attitude that had to change . I was still vicim blamed.
It got so bad that at one point my way of disclosing was "Am I that much of a slut that x did y to me?" . I was 14.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 27/06/2017 15:56

Oh Rebel I'm so sorry that happened to you, what a horrid thing to happen and so young as well. I was also attacked in a "safe" situation and it left me feeling so unprotected all the time.

It makes me so angry when people think that women and girls should change their behaviour, as though its only drunk women stumbling around in dark alleys wearing mini skirts that get assaulted.

The upsetting thing is, the friends I know that have been raped were attacked whilst taking precautions such as being walked home or to transport by a male friend or getting a taxi. And yes to the PP who said that afterwards you get asked, well why did you take him home? Trust him? Get in that taxi?

Popchyck · 27/06/2017 16:10

Rebel, I'm really sorry that happened to you. It wasn't your fault.

NoLoveofMine · 27/06/2017 16:41

It makes me so angry when people think that women and girls should change their behaviour, as though its only drunk women stumbling around in dark alleys wearing mini skirts that get assaulted.

Very much so but even if it was this would be completely unacceptable. Women are free to drink and wear any clothing they like, nothing gives anyone an excuse to assault us nor is this behaviour which should have to be changed (I know you weren't implying otherwise).

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TheSparrowhawk · 27/06/2017 16:43

'Very much so but even if it was this would be completely unacceptable. Women are free to drink and wear any clothing they like, nothing gives anyone an excuse to assault us nor is this behaviour which should have to be changed (I know you weren't implying otherwise).'

Hear hear. Drinking and wearing clothes are not crimes.

NoLoveofMine · 27/06/2017 16:46

Absolutely Sparrowhawk and they are never excuses for or reasons why women or girls are assaulted.

Very sorry to hear of your experiences Rebel and OneFlewOver Flowers

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ThymeLord · 27/06/2017 16:47

But things like excess alcohol consumption or leaving your drink unattended could make you more vulnerable

Well for me Owlsin this ties into the point that I clumsily made earlier in the thread. Giving out advice like this just says "rape the other woman". If I avoid drinking too much (what if I don't want to?) and if I don't leave my drink unattended (what if i'm having a whale of a time and leave my drink on the table while I go to the dance floor) then I won't get raped. She will. The one who is off her face drunk, the one who left her drink on the speaker whilst she was dancing. It doesn't solve the problem of the rapist, it just makes sure that it happens to the other woman.

NoLoveofMine · 27/06/2017 16:52

You're right ThymeLord but it's not even the case that it'll be that hypothetical other woman who is raped. Women are raped in broad daylight, at all hours of the day, sober, tipsy, drunk, it makes no difference and is just another way to shift blame away from the attackers and limit women's lives and freedom to avoid tackling the real issue.

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Popchyck · 27/06/2017 17:11

Some men are raped by other men.

I do wonder if there is the same kind of "Well, what was he doing out at that time of night?" and "Why didn't he get a taxi?" comments about the victim in that situation.

My feeling is that it is less acceptable to say these things when a man is the victim. In fact, I've never heard that at all. Whereas we are bombarded with Women Should Be Careful And Adapt Their Behaviour messages.

RebelRogue · 27/06/2017 17:14

@Popchyck sadly if the male is bi or gay,they have encountered similar derision and victim blaming as women.
Or in case where young men and alcohol have been involved it was put down to "teenage experimentation " and "next day regrets".

Collidascope · 27/06/2017 17:20

“just another way to shift blame away from the attackers and limit women's lives and freedom to avoid tackling the real issue”

I think this is the real issue, isn’t it? The message the public get after a terrorist attack is so different. “Be defiant, go about life as normal. Don’t let them win. The authorities are doing all they can to keep you safe.” Headlines are full of it, of what must be done about it, of whose fault it is.
The thing with violence against women is that fuck all is being done by the authorities to keep up safe -despite it being more far-reaching. Our rape conviction rates are HORRENDOUS. Truly shameful. And when there is a conviction, the sentencing is laughable too. There’s no attempt to use intelligence to see who might be a risk and keep tabs on them. There are a few niche efforts by feminist journalists to draw attention to it in the media, but it’s all just preaching to the converted, or men shut it down because NAMALT. I’m not sure which came first -this seeming helplessness by the people employed to protect us when faced by male violence, or this idea that women can protect themselves by avoiding certain things (usually things that certain people feel are morally dubious, conveniently, like drinking or having a one night stand). Either way, the two notions prop each other up. Basically, "women, look after yourselves, because we can't be bothered to spend resources and thinking power on it."
And of course, as many have pointed out, the things women should apparently avoid doing are unlikely to protect against rape anyway.
At least the message of “stay in the house, avoid arenas, stadiums and the London Underground” probably would see you safe from terrorism, even if it did have a severely limiting effect on your life. Given we’re all more likely to be hurt by our male partners or friends or relatives, staying in the house with them hardly seems like good advice. and I've never heard the advice of avoiding men altogether.

NoLoveofMine · 27/06/2017 17:29

Don't get drunk on a night out

But women are raped sober.

Don't walk alone at night

But women are raped in the middle of the day.

Don't walk around on your own

But women are attacked whilst out together.

Don't walk home without a man escorting you

But most attackers are known to the victim.

Don't lead him on and walk home with him

But I thought I had to have him get me back safely.

Don't rape anyone

But...oh.

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NoLoveofMine · 27/06/2017 17:33

Fantastic post Collidascope and the comparison with the reaction to and advice after terrorist attacks is a sadly great point. Also absolutely regarding the advice being because no-one actually wants to tackle the real issue of violence against women (which is far more of a threat than terrorism anyway in terms of numbers), so just dish out advice which makes it seem it's the responsibility of women and girls to avoid it and that this is even possible.

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panjandrumpyjamas · 27/06/2017 23:47

If only..... Wanda Sykes - Detachable Pussy

OlennasWimple · 27/06/2017 23:48

I think it's a thought process to help women live their lives without being afraid to do anything: If I don't wear a short skirt / drink too much / walk through the dark shortcut alone, I'll be helping protect myself from being raped. Because the alternative is acknowledging that there's very little indeed we can do to avoid being raped, and that's a pretty scary thought

IndominusRex · 28/06/2017 09:10

Late to this one, some terrible stories on the thread. I think beleiving victims is one of the key ways we need to change. Love the idea of the women's keep safe allowances and male curfews!
Re the language - ive started also always calling out male violence as male violence. One thing I'd noticed is that I always referred to myself as having 'been in an abusing relationship' and ive only recently started saying 'had an abusive boyfriend' because I realised that my language took the blame away from him and placed it onto the relationship itself.

MrsJayy · 28/06/2017 09:18

I was assaulted when i was being walked home by a man i knew he tried it on as he put it and apologised it was very frightening i was 19 and drunk, I have never advocated dont walk home alone to my Dds because of this I obviously want my Dds home safe but i don't expect them to find somebody to walk with.

Popchyck · 28/06/2017 10:12

Some really great posts on this thread. Thank you.

And yes "abusive relationship" is not putting the responsibility on the person doing the abusing. I'll also start saying "abusive partner" when discussing these things. These things are important.

Datun · 28/06/2017 10:22

Totally agree with 'abusive relationship'. In fact, I'm going to think about the way I phrase these things in general.

Male violence. It has a name.

VAWG for instance. It doesn't name it.

Of course there are women who are violent too. But that obscures the highly gendered aspect.

I'm going to start using male violence and to people who say women can be violent too, I will agree, but point out that it's not in the same numbers. Even if it makes the conversation more lengthy.

Imaginosity · 28/06/2017 10:30

I worry if my DH is out late in case some thug decides to start a fight. You hear about men - and woman being punched in the back of the head for no reason. I tell DH to get a taxi and I worry until he is home. I thinl DH should take precautions because there are bad people out there and I want him to be safe - but it wouldn't be his fault if someone attacked him.

NoLoveofMine · 28/06/2017 17:41

Very good points being made about language and how we phrase things. I tend to say "VAWG" as well and hadn't considered this doesn't actually name the problem in terms of who's committing this violence. I'm also going to start addressing what it actually is. I wonder if we're conditioned not to because of who is perpetrating this violence? It's odd I felt almost reticent to say it but will make sure I do now.

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