"Don't walk home alone"

[NoLoveofMine]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40399103

Ridiculous, victim blaming advice to women and girls anyway but this shows yet again how pointless it is to suggest.

It will suffice if we can get women to not tolerate rape when it happens to other women

I really agree with this statement Vestal. I'm not very good at expressing myself so bear with me; anytime a thread about rape comes up on MN there are always lots and lots of people who pile on with the "well you wouldn't leave your door unlocked" analogy and the equally irritating "It's just sound advice to not walk home alone/get drunk". It strikes me that what these posters are saying is actually, make sure that the rapist rapes another woman, not you. It isn't actual advice that deals with the problem of men and their raping, it's advice which tries to make sure that some other woman is raped. That probably doesn't make a lot of sense, sorry, i'm not the cleverest.

How abhorrent that this could be (and far too often still is) the first response when finding out about such an awful attack taking place

NoLove An 8 year old girl was raped in a park in Manchester over the weekend, by a 16 year old boy. I stood waiting for my train this morning listening to a group of women discussing this case. They all wanted to know what the girl was doing in the park at 6.55pm. The rapist wasn't mentioned throughout their entire chat.

ThymeLord your post made perfect sense and expresses a lot of what I think. This in particular is exactly right and something I've thought for a while:

It strikes me that what these posters are saying is actually, make sure that the rapist rapes another woman, not you.

So sadly true.

That's so disheartening regarding that abhorrent case but unfortunately doesn't surprise me. It seems still so often the default reaction is to question the victim's actions, blame them, discuss what they were doing and so begin to absolve the attacker of responsibility. It's incredibly worrying how widespread these views are, not least because they'll routinely be held by some (if not most) of those on juries.

Women question the behaviour of victims because it makes them feel better to think that if they don't do X, Y and Z then they won't be victims themselves. It's magical thinking and it's somewhat understandable in the face of such a huge and constant threat. If women really faced the issue - ie that men rape millions of women across the world every year and their chances of being one of those women is very high - it would just to be too scary. It's far easier to think 'well I don't walk home late on my own so I'll be fine'

Theyallwanted to know what the girl was doing in the park at 6.55pm

This crops up lot on MN

Whenever a child is abducted or gets lost then gets drowned etc

As of the children are the ones who should be living in some parental imposed prison whilst the person (who incidently the kid probably knows or WOULDN'T have got in the van/house in the first place) is free to have chosen someone else. Like that little girl.abducted in Wales im.some.sleey village where it was normal.for you g kids to be playing outside with school friends or their siblings and people have done so for generations.

There was a rape locally that happened a few years ago, still unsolved. A Nurse walking to her early shift, so it happened about 6:30 am.

We were out with some of DP's acquaintances, (though a hobby)and it came up, how awful it was. . . . . . and then the victim blaming began. Why was she walking, why did she take that underpass, well she shouldn't have been wearing her uniform (no reports stated what she was wearing so an assumption). She should have known better to be out in that area at that time. And of course why didn't she drive or get a cab.

So I suggested that as legally in this country only men can rape so maybe there should be a curfew for men, not allowed out alone between 10:30pm till 7am.

After all they're the ones committing the crimes. . . .

The amount of dropped jaws was hilarious, and the but but but

But what about men who work night shifts? ehh they could get cabs to and from work, therefore escorted, but that would cost money. Emmm you just said that poor woman should have got a cab, it would have cost her money.

But thats not fair, men should be able to walk home if they choose to, and why can't women? So if a man walking to/from work gets attacked is it his fault? Well no of course not. So why when a women doing the same and gets attacked, she should have known better?

And on and on and on

The idea that they might be inconvenienced by other men's actions was abhorrent, but that women spent their lives inconvenienced by men's actions never even occurred to them

That is true shiner - more men get attacked on the street (by men) than women.

But men do Important Things - their lives must not be disrupted. Silly women shouldn't go out into Men's space (ie the world), they should just stay at home, where it's safe. Of course, the irony of it all is that the vast majority of rapes take place in a home.

Thanks NoLove! I know what i'm trying to say but it doesn't always come out well!

People are increasingly very reluctant to call out male violence and, as with so many issues, women are the ones held accountable for the actions of men. What disheartens me most of all is the sheer numbers of women who quite happily dish out this 'safety advice' without realising what they are actually saying. As long as I don't get raped then it's tough shit if she does. She should've done a, b or c.

Like many other posters, I have had the conversation where I have suggested that in fact it should be men who have their freedom restricted. The responses vary from laughter to anger. I personally feel it's the most sensible course of action! They are the ones causing it so they should be under curfew. Not the women. Surprising how it doesn't catch on isn't it.

You needn't worry about that ThymeLord as you're articulating exactly as I'd like to a lot of what I often try to say!

It is very disheartening. Even if the advice worked it'd be horrific because as you say, it's saying "make sure another woman gets raped instead" and is accepting that this would happen, and being content with it. It's also not at all practical or feasible and isn't grounded in any genuine concern, doesn't work and serves only to limit the lives of women and girls and restrict our freedom due to the threat of what men might choose to do to us. Added to that of course you're more likely to be attacked by someone known to you. It's just victim blaming and another way to push the responsibility onto women and girls to avoid attack (impossible anyway) and away from those who could actually stop it - the perpetrators.

Also as you and FastAbsorbingCake pointed out that this is so accepted despite it being unhelpful yet the reactions if any curtailment on the lives of men is even suggested in social company are as you described says a lot about whose lives are deemed of greater value.

My niece was raped at a music school by a boy whilst they were both waiting for a rehearsal to take place. How should she have avoided that?

We could at the very least curfew men half the days of the year as an experiment. It would at least be equitable.

Sorry to hear about what happened to your niece Mercury

Quite, women and girls can't avoid rape. The only way rape can be avoided is for rapists to stop attacking.

"We could at the very least curfew men half the days of the year as an experiment. It would at least be equitable."

I bet an awful lot of men would suddenly realise they were trans if we did that.

We could at the very least curfew men half the days of the year as an experiment. It would at least be equitable

I wonder how many men would decide they felt like women if that was to happen?

Sorry Collidascope, cross posted. The last two posts after Dervel weren't showing when I refreshed.

Thyme, perhaps the solution to men feeling like women during the curfew would be to allow them out but have them disabled in some way -say, hands tied behind backs -to allow them to experience the vulnerability of not being able to defend themselves and so that attacking doesn't even occur to them. Then they can really feel like women.

Do you know, I don't think they'd be as keen then. It's strange isn't it!

Fast, I have had a very similar conversation recently, any suggestion that men's freedom is curtailed is met by astonishment, and but but but. Also look how the goalposts are moved with ease, it's now not just don't walk home in the dark, it's don't walk home in daylight.

Teaching rape avoidance = teaching about respect and enthusiastic participation, surely?

Apparently boys are more likely to be attacked by a stranger on the street (male violence again), but when do you ever hear young boys being advised not to walk alone/in a certain area/after a certain time?

Hm, I don't know, in early puberty, when boys don't have male upper body strength yet, they usually don't get that much freedom, either.
I certainly wouldn't let a 13 year old out to party all night and walk home in the dark.

With older teens and young men, well, they are in theory able to defend themselves better against male violence. In theory.

Not walking home alone is shit advice for anyone, a guy I know was attacked while out with his friends.

The attackers got their asses handed to them because that group of friends met through martial arts, but he assumes that they were attacked because there were women in their group and the attackers envied them the female company.
Now, I wasn't there, but that seems like a good enough reason for violent males to attack. Perhaps they would also have attacked the men on their own, and they almost certainly would have molested the women had they been on their own.

But if you deal with a group of violent thugs ... numbers don't necessarily help.

Granted, they were probably in a part of the city that I'd never set foot into ... because I am a woman.
If I really think about how much my freedom is curtailed because I really, really, really don't want to be raped, it is depressing. (I know that many women travel to Africa, the Middle East, South America, et cetera, and wouldn never blame them if a man there decided to trape them, but I wouldn't dare go. It just doesn't seem safe.)

I don't understand how trying to give advice on how to be safer is victim-blaming - it's always the attacker who is to blame, surely? But things like excess alcohol consumption or leaving your drink unattended could make you more vulnerable.. but that's not the same as saying it's the victims fault. I know if I go to the toilet without my drink, there is a higher likelihood it could be spiked with something - but, it's still the attacker's fault for putting it in my drink.

It's never the fault of a victim.

Now, I wasn't there, but that seems like a good enough reason for violent males to attack.

Tbh, I don't think these men need a reason.
Years ago my then BF was walking along in a town with two (male) friends. A group of 2 men and 2 women were walking towards them and the men just punched my BF and their friends in the face, making a mess of them. No rhyme, no reason :/

By the way, the women thought it was hilarious .

I don't understand how trying to give advice on how to be safer is victim-blaming

It's victim blaming because the advice doesn't work and serves only to make victims feel they could have avoided attack and are partially responsible. Women and girls are attacked sober, tipsy, drunk, in broad daylight in the middle of the day, at night, by men they've never met, men they've just met, acquaintances, friends, partners, on the street, in their own homes, when not even alone and so on. The only way to avoid any of this is for the perpetrators to cease. The vulnerability is being female in the first place; any suggestion of anything a woman or girl did making her vulnerable is to avoid the real issue and seek only to blame and limit the lives of women and girls.