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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why so much trans bashing on MN?

577 replies

leighdinglady · 02/05/2017 15:26

I just don't get it at all.

Why do I see threads every day on MN which spout hatred and fear about the trans community. What's everyone so scared of??? Literally hundreds of posts of people talking like trans women are somehow a threat to biological women.

For a social platform which is meant to be friendly and approachable, this really stinks.

OP posts:
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Oswin · 02/05/2017 17:17

I spent yesterday arguing with a trans women who thought it is absolutely bigoted for lesbians to not want sex with trans women.
Dick excluding lesbians are basically nazis and are responsible for the death of trans women.

Don't think this shit is rare. It's not. Trans activist are loud and are the people the will be listened to on trans issues.

SenseiWoo · 02/05/2017 17:21

I am not afraid.
I am worried about the pressures on children and teenagers, and particularly on lesbians the current thinking on trans imposes. It is tempting to agree that the concerns expressed on MN are overblown, but where women's rights are involved, concerns are almost never overblown.

venusinscorpio · 02/05/2017 17:21

Why would I give two hoots what the activists mentioned by Iam and Number7 think? Since when did you argue with jokers?

The point is that these activists are being listened to, and policy is being made around them. You are free to naively stick your head in the sand of course, but women are being erased as a biological sex class regardless of our very palpable biological reality and the problems we face because of it.

So don't expect other women not to have a problem with that.

And stop appropriating intersex to make a specious argument, intersex conditions are physical disorders. Most intersex people are clearly male or female. As I said on another thread, the existence of people with no legs or one leg or three legs does not mean that humans are not a bipedal species. We are not all on a "spectrum" between no legs and three legs.

sticklebrix · 02/05/2017 17:27

I hate to see so much fear

Why? It's perfectly appropriate for women to be fearful. Our rights, dignity and protections are under threat. History gives us good reason to fear that men's wants will be prioritised over women's needs whenever they come into conflict.

I am no more scared of transpeople than the general male population. But I'm very worried about mine and my daughters' already sketchy protections as females being eroded.

venusinscorpio · 02/05/2017 17:36

History gives us good reason to fear that men's wants will be prioritised over women's needs whenever they come into conflict.

YY, and left wing "progressive" men are no different to right wing men. They are both happy to throw women under the bus.

ChocChocPorridge · 02/05/2017 17:36

"there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex"

I think that even this is being mis-used, because the fact of the matter is that in normal (and notice I just mean that most people have, not a judgement) development, they'll all cluster - people of a certain sex will have the characteristics of that sex across all measurements.

Artificially changing your hormone levels, surgically modifying your phenotype, whilst maintaining your chromosomes (obviously), doesn't muddy the waters to anyone who actually thinks about it.

TheWeeWitch · 02/05/2017 17:47

@venusinscorpio correctly states the key reason that trans issues are such a focus of discussion on MN:

women are being erased as a biological sex class regardless of our very palpable biological reality and the problems we face because of it

sticklebrix · 02/05/2017 17:54

Notmyrealname85

Here's an example of an intersex organisation objecting to the conflation of intersex and transgender issues:

www.aissg.org/21_OVERVIEW.HTM#Terminology

Intersex people have been coopted by transactivists. Often without their permission and despite their objections. People who mean well conflate intersex people with transgender people, although they are not the same thing.

WombOfOnesOwn · 02/05/2017 17:56

LOL. They really can't come up with a good argument about why we shouldn't be concerned about people like Muscato.

All the pro-trans side can say is "well, bring it up with him directly, no need to bring supporters of his argument into it."

I wonder how many of you say that about Theresa May. Or Trump. Or about activists for extreme right-wing causes -- "don't hold it against posters who are pro-white nationalism, it's those OTHER activists who are giving the cause a bad name, the posters here never harmed anyone, and there's no sense in berating people who aren't actually saying the most objectionable thing."

It's so transparent that this issue is receiving special treatment in a lot of people's minds. The doublethink required to hold pro-trans views must be causing a lot of cognitive dissonance, which means that there's a major cognitive load on the people on the pro-trans side of the debate -- no wonder they have a hard time forming rational or coherent arguments and instead stick to things they'd never say about any other issue.

venusinscorpio · 02/05/2017 18:00

It's so transparent that this issue is receiving special treatment in a lot of people's minds. The doublethink required to hold pro-trans views must be causing a lot of cognitive dissonance, which means that there's a major cognitive load on the people on the pro-trans side of the debate -- no wonder they have a hard time forming rational or coherent arguments and instead stick to things they'd never say about any other issue.

YY it's such blatant special pleading.

Elendon · 02/05/2017 18:11

There are some women who post on FWR who have never been subjected to sexist remarks whilst going about their daily lives, namely Lasswiththedelicateair. That doesn't mean that sexist remarks whilst women go about their daily lives doesn't exist.

Most transwomen want to get on with their lives in peace and understand they are not women and haven't led the life that a woman lives. Miranda Yardley is one who understands (she herself has been called a TERF for saying so). I accept that trans have problems, but they are problems caused mainly by men.

And basically, a girl and a woman lives her life as such from birth. I refuse to let my foot from the door that is a life lived as a girl and a woman.

sticklebrix · 02/05/2017 18:11

venusinscorpio
''YY, and left wing "progressive" men are no different to right wing men. They are both happy to throw women under the bus.''

You know, I used to think that left wing men just didn't understand when it comes to this issue. Increasingly unsure now.

But TBH it worries me more that many women seem happy to throw women under the bus!

sticklebrix · 02/05/2017 18:12

Not blaming women here - I was a libfem until quite recently.

venusinscorpio · 02/05/2017 18:15

But TBH it worries me more that many women seem happy to throw women under the bus!

Yes, I know! Socialised to put men first though. But it costs them. Denial is the only way out.

WhereYouLeftIt · 02/05/2017 18:29
OlennasWimple · 02/05/2017 18:35

I think the real question is "why are there so many threads started complaining about "all the trans hate on MN" where the poster clearly hasn't actually engaged with the discussions on said thread, posts a few times and then disappears"

Datun · 02/05/2017 18:41

The reason why the feminists on mumsnet have identified and reacted to the problem is precisely because they are feminists. They have spent an inordinate amount of time analysing the reason why women as a class have been oppressed across time and geography.

No one group oppresses another group for no reason. Transwomen are not oppressed, they may be discriminated against but that's different.

Black people have been oppressed because white people wanted to extract something from them, namely their labour. To do all the shit jobs that white people didn't want to do.

Women have been oppressed because men want to extract their reproductive, sexual and emotional labour.

People are not oppressed for no reason.

Trans people are not oppressed because no one is trying to extract anything from them.

Men have used their biological strength and male bodies to enforce female oppression. The way they have propagated this is to enforce a gender role on women that means they have only been considered fit to raise children, stay in the home and have no structural or political power.

Transgenderism as an ideology says that these roles are important. And should be upheld.

The very fact that they perform a stereotypical female role means that this is a woman's role.

It's the entire basis of a patriarchal society.

Feminists get this because they understand exactly how a patriarchy works. It's entire basis of feminism.

That's why no one cares whether a transwomen presents as woman or not. Whatever gets you over your gender dysphoria.

But when you say this is what women do you are upholding an oppressive system where women are the losers. When you say this is what women do and at the same time you do exactly what the patriarchy has always done - violate their spaces, tell them they are wrong, try to silence them, threaten them, and enforce your opinion through violence you are unequivocally mired in patriarchy.

venusinscorpio · 02/05/2017 19:06

It irritates me that the same posters pop up, say their little piece and then fuck off without really engaging. If you haven't got a decent argument, why keep coming back? It's goady.

Thelilywhite · 02/05/2017 19:14

Agreed Venus The link should go on the wiki I feel

Datun · 02/05/2017 19:16

venusinscorpio

Not only goady, I think it is they who the ones who are fearful. Fearful of having their world view questioned.

Fearful of having their own views held to account and found wanting. Scared to engage because their arguments don't stand up.

It's an 'egg on face' aversion.

FerretsAreFeminists · 02/05/2017 19:25

Why so much trans bashing on MN?

Why do people who come on here simply to accuse us of being transphobic never actually show us any specific examples of all this alleged transphobia? And why do they never engage in debate? They just yell "transphobic!" and run.

BetsyM00 · 02/05/2017 19:28

But why do it? Why start a thread saying we're unnecessarily scared and hateful when they so clearly know nothing about the topic? The OP had no trans issues affect her life, knew nothing of AGP, Danielle Muscato or lesbians being called transphobic for not fellating MTT. Never mind critical thinking, where's the ability to do basic research? There's enough threads and info here.

I do admire everyone on this board though. Time and time again I see women explain their reasoning and engage with those who drop in and call us hateful. Guess there will be another one along shortly.

Xenophile · 02/05/2017 19:35

I think part of the problem is that we want to be nice. And we're constantly told that we have to blindly accept things in order to maintain that niceness. However, feminism is or should be, a way of thinking critically about issues and the more outré quarters of the tranosphere knows that their declarations simply don't hold up to scrutiny, better for them to try and silence everyone.

PencilsInSpace · 02/05/2017 19:36

I'm scared that the category 'woman' now includes any man who says he is a woman
I'm scared that it's becoming impossible to talk about sex-based oppression
I'm scared that gender stereotypes are becoming the definition of 'woman' and 'man'
I'm scared that trans has no definition beyond anybody who says they are trans
I'm scared that a completely undefineable group of male people who say they are transwomen have access to all women's sex-segregated spaces
I'm scared that women's sport is becoming utterly pointless
I'm scared that lesbians are being pressured to have sex they don't want with male people
I'm scared that lesbians are being pressured to become transmen
I'm scared that lesbian culture is disappearing
I'm scared that women no longer have the right to meet without male people present, if a male person objects
I'm scared that non-gender-conforming children are being told there is something badly wrong with their bodies
I'm scared that those children are being socially transitioned at a very young age and it might be incredibly difficult for them to change their minds
I'm scared that the transing of children amounts to conversion therapy
I'm scared that young children with autism are being transed when the problem is black and white thinking plus social awkwardness
I'm scared that children are being told a pack of pseudoscientific lies in schools
I'm scared that young girls are being taught to ignore the boundaries which keep them safe(r)
I'm scared that children are being given harmful drugs and are told the effects are totally reversible when they are not
I am scared that young girls are causing themselves health issues by binding their breasts
I am scared that mentally vulnerable people are having staggeringly unsuccessful surgery that leaves them with wounds for life
I am scared that people have wholesale started believing in pink brains and blue brains
I am scared that transwomen offend at the same rate as men and are more likely to be sex offenders
I am scared that women are being gaslighted, told to STFU, threatened with rape or death, losing their jobs, being no-platformed ...

There's probably definitely more but that'll do for now.

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