Why so much trans bashing on MN?

[leighdinglady]

I just don't get it at all.

Why do I see threads every day on MN which spout hatred and fear about the trans community. What's everyone so scared of??? Literally hundreds of posts of people talking like trans women are somehow a threat to biological women.

For a social platform which is meant to be friendly and approachable, this really stinks.

if you define m/f by chromosomes how do they fit into the m/f and who gets to categorise them?

They are intersex.

They are also incredibly rare.

They have also asked repeatedly and politely to not be dragged into discussions about trans issues because they are not the same. Why not try respecting them by, you know, not bringing them up in these discussions?

But to the poster that says m/f is defined by chromosomes...how do they account for intersex? (I just think defining m/f like that is incredibly limiting)

OK, medically, if you have a Y chromosome, no matter how many of them you have, and how many Xs you have, no matter how that presents physically, then you're male.

There are some people who develop with female looking bodies, despite being chromosomally male, but, it's a testable, identifiable, disorder.

NOTHING TO DO WITH TRANS!

Um, how else are we supposed to define sex if not by biology?

The WHO article states more complexity but...

So if you don't have the right chromosomes you can never be female? You can only (if m->f) identify as "trans"?

Well leighdinglady, have you watched Riley's latest video (he's made lots) and what do you think of the points he makes?

To put it another way if you look across the entire landscape of vocal trans-activists, how many do you think will be intersex?

Let's do a thought experiment. If none, or almost none, of vocal trans-activists are intersex, what would this tell you about the relevance of the intersex condition to people who identify as trans?

Why yes, not, that would be correct.

You can present as female, you can dress as female, but you won't BE female.

Notmyrealname85, why do you continue to to waffle on about intesrsex? The OP was asking about 'trans-bashing'. Why are you so determined to derail her questions?

Sex guide - Chromasomes:

Xx = Woman (even if you like to have a shaved head, love football and are attracted to women)

Xy = Man (even if you like pink, glitter and long flowing locks)

Any deviation from this = Intersex people, who are incredibly rare, and who have asked repeatedly to not be dragged in to these arguments. They have a chromosomal abnormality.

Gender - Made up by society. Has no influence on whether you are biologically a man or a woman.

Neither does the clothes you like, the sex you are attracted to or your hobbies.

so it's solely based on chromosomes? So what about WHO guidelines on variations, what do we do with these people?

"there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex"

That's what trans activists would have you believe.

They deliberately muddy the waters of this 'debate' by dragging a tiny, tiny, medically distinct group of people against their will and try to 'lump them' in with the genuine gender dysphorics, the autogynophiliacs, the entitled piss takers playing the system and the gays in denial.

Take a look at this website for what happened when a transactivist group tried to rope in the AISSG to add 'legitimacy' to their argument for a BBC documentary. AISSG

The intersex group are not, have never been and refuse to be part of the transgender movement.

So if you don't have the right chromosomes you can never be female? You can only (if m->f) identify as "trans"?

I don't really like the term "identify as trans" but everything else you said there is correct.

To be honest with you, I think saying things like transwomen are women, we are female, etc is the real transphobia. The implication is that there is something wrong with being trans and we have to pretend to be something else in order to be accepted.

I'd agree with that Curry.

Trans people are trans. There's no value judgement there, it's just factually correct.

However I'm interested to know how else we're supposed to define sex if it's not defined by biology?

IAmEatingACurry - it's all about feelings innit?

Many transactivist arguments are not rational.

Faced with actual, you know, science-y stuff, their argument falls to pieces.

Leigh I used to have very similar thoughts to you. I have quite a few transwomen in my life and used to wonder what all the fuss was about-especially here.

Then I read up a little more,

saw lesbians being accused of being transphobic because they didn't fancy engaging with penises,

saw people like Danielle Muscato deciding he was a woman,

saw children as young as 2 and 3 being encouraged to change gender because they fancied wearing a tea towel as long hair,

saw people in their late teens having to de transition because their parents had pushed for early transitioning when in reality they were gay.

The transwomen I know are equally horrified by the above issues and feel that rather than help them, they do the direct opposite.

Absolutely agree with that IAmEatingACurry

My neighbours is mtf trans. She will describe herself as trans and has the support of everyone that knows her.

She is not impressed with all the TRA's making her life harder.

Faced with actual, you know, science-y stuff, their argument falls to pieces.

I am just surprised that no one has posted that scientifically bullshit post made by the so-called science teacher that went viral yet.

The one where we're all just basically clown fish and mould spores?

Ok, Leighdinglady, you asked a direct question: 'What are you afraid of?'

My daughter is lesbian, and coming up for university age.

A few years ago, she could probably have relied on university as being a time to find her feet, find her group, maybe find her first real relationships.

I am very directly concerned that instead of this, she's likely to find that LGB groups are now all about the T instead, that the Women's Officer may well be T and have not one clue about genuine female priorities, that she will find that her peers call her transphobic for not having relationships with a vocal minority of males, that the loos will be trendily 'gender-neutral' and thus less safe and indeed less available (women need more access to loos, not less), that the formerly unisex floors of university halls will also be mixed, that she will compete in sports against males who will merely self-declare as female... none of these are invented examples.

She's a nice girl, a kind one, born to champion the underdog. She will feel that she's in the wrong for objecting to any of the above. Yes, I worry.

Yeah that one.

The trouble is, transactivists have been scarily influential with an ability to get policy and laws changed with breathtaking speed. The implications, in particular for women and children, are both dangerous and generally negative. I won't repeat many of the clear examples already given for this but would highlight the safeguarding implications for children who are being influenced by online groups/ individuals into believing that their understandable adolescent (and pre - adolescent) feelings mean that they are transgender and should change sex.
It's grooming!
We recognise that paedophiles 'successfully' groom children online into entering into sexual relationships with them, we recognise that terrorists use the internet to 'successfully' groom young people into joining radical groups who seek to harm others, we condemn the pro ana sites that 'successfully' present anorexia / eating disorders as positive life choices - all things that harm children and young people as they grow to maturity. We recognise that young people are vulnerable and need protection from all these.
But for children experiencing issues about their feelings, sexuality, gender confidence etc, we point them immediately online in the direction of those adults, often with a vested interest in promoting their own beliefs / gaining their own validation, who then actively encourage children to identify as trans and to take puberty blockers and surgery.
Parents of transgender children have eloquently described on Mumsnet the challenges of finding neutral professional support for their children that doesn't actively promoting this particular life choice.

As adults we are collectively failing to protect children from these influences and we must to be able to challenge this growing orthodoxy.

Oh, and I worry like mad for the child in DD's year who is FtM, who cries about their voice not breaking, binds their chest, is so tiny that is presumably on puberty blockers which are fucking dangerous, and according to DD is frequently suicidal despite having socially transitioned. This child needs serious help, and I worry that instead they are getting permanent damaging medical treatment at a very vulnerable time.

I worry for a friend's child who transitioned two or three years ago - also FtM, taking sterilising hormone treatment. How can they know at 18 that this is what they'll want for life? I didn't want children at 18 either.

I worry for the young daughters of an adult transitioning MtF acquaintance, who are finding it bloody difficult to deal with, especially their da's insistence that he has always been their mother.

Hell, I worry for far less reason than that, OP.

I think it crucial that there is still a space to discuss these issues.

For me personally, as a gay woman:

• I am longer appropriately represented by Stonewall. In fact, according to Stonewall's definition of trans, I am now male. This is quite an impressive feat.

• I have lost friends because my sexual preference does not extend to sleeping with those in possession of a penis, whatever they call themselves. Apparently, I need to "reflect" on why I have such preferences.

• I cannot stand the word CIS. I was not assigned a sex, FFS. I have no intrinsic gender, with that being imposed upon me by society. I reject conventions surrounding gender; therefore I am not CIS.

• Gay women are being thrown under the bus. I have yet to encounter someone who claims that gay men refusing to sleep with FTT's are transphobic. It is one rule for lesbians, another for gay men: in fact, the suggestion that gay men should be open to dating FTT's is not usually given serious thought.

There is a weird obsession in the LGBT 'community' at the moment about who lesbians should be sleeping with: it is not enough that I abhor discrimination concerning e.g. housing, employment, and education - if I don't want to take a MTT to bed, it is transphobic. It is so very tiring, and the thing that caused me to finally snap.

(Apols to EatingaCurry for the rant; I think you share the worries.)