Why so much trans bashing on MN?

[leighdinglady]

I just don't get it at all.

Why do I see threads every day on MN which spout hatred and fear about the trans community. What's everyone so scared of??? Literally hundreds of posts of people talking like trans women are somehow a threat to biological women.

For a social platform which is meant to be friendly and approachable, this really stinks.

Great post WhereYouLeftIt

I see you had a 'WTF' response to "do you think a penis is a female sex organ? do you think lesbians should learn to suck one?"
That suggest that you are unaware of the pressure that lesbians are under to have relationships with transwomen - as in, males.

Have a look at the attached video. This is not a wind-up, Riley J. Dennis is a transactivist, vlogs for Everyday Feminism, considers himself a lesbian transwoman. He is 6'4" tall and retains his penis.

Posters just because we may support people transitioning doesn't mean we think gay women should "suck cock".

Nobody here has said that they wouldn't support anyone transitioning if that's what they want. At least I haven't seen anyone say that. In fact I have seen quite a few people here say that they support anyone who has made the decision to transition if that's what helps them.

As a side note, you do realise that if you think lesbians shouldn't have to "suck cock" if they don't want to then according to the trans activists that would make you a transphobic bigot?

I'm not saying trans women ARE women, or that they have the same issues as women

You do realize that the above makes you a transphobic awful TERF in the eyes of trans activists.

the people they are threatened by or raise as examples are the exception, not the rule

Whether they are the exception or not, notmyrealname85, these are the people setting the agenda and getting the laws and norms changed.

And where's your empathy towards women whose spaces and resources are being stolen, if you are so keen on empathy, then?

On a personal level, I don't like where trans activism is heading because it is also negatively impacting genuine trans people like myself who just want to get on with our lives. Pretty much all mental health support has been withdrawn for trans people leaving us alone and vulnerable. We have the twat activists to thank for that.

GlamClam I'm interested in what people here think re what makes a man or woman as I get confused by responses -

Are people here saying "men" can't transition to "women" on sex grounds (in which case what about intersex etc?)

Or on gender grounds eg there's so much more to being a women than having a vagina (eg by full transition surgery), in which case are we to be held to old gender norms of old? (No thank you)

Or there's no "man" and "woman" as gender is social construct and we can all be whatever the frig we want

Or women are defining how? That we have a shared history of oppression? Is that what defines us?

Notmyrealname85 men have XY chromosomes and women have XX chromosomes. This cannot be changed.

Intersex and trans have nothing to do with each other and I wish people would stop bringing intersex conditions up in these discussions.

Why would I give two hoots what the activists mentioned by Iam and Number7 think? Since when did you argue with jokers?

I'm saying that for people with brains and resources, where you have examples of genuine prejudice, you should focus your energies on voicing concerns elsewhere. Has anyone on the site ever actually supported the activists you mention?

I imagine if you read the threads OP, you might understand why there are so many of them.

Who's rallying? We were explaining, in response to a thread created by someone - it's a discussion board, isn't that how they're supposed to work?

Again. The fear is actually more of the ill-thought through, prejudicial to woman, systematic changes to the law than of individuals. Although, there are plenty of individuals who any sane person would fear if they crossed paths, and most of them are men, no matter what they declare themselves to be today. (and note, that it's dangerous men that are the issue, not dysphoric transwomen - but as things stand, we have no way to tell the difference, and if self-identification goes though, no way to articulate the problem)

Many trans activist bashing threads.

Some of the activists are arguing in the face of fairly basic science and come across as batshit.

Great points notmyrealname

Iam so it's solely based on chromosomes? So what about WHO guidelines on variations, what do we do with these people?

"there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex"

www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

"Are people here saying "men" can't transition to "women" on sex grounds (in which case what about intersex etc?)"
Oh FFS. How many times does the intersex community have to say that transgender issues are nothing to do with them? Intersex people are not transgender. They are dealing with chromosomal abnormalities.

Why would I give two hoots what the activists mentioned by Iam and Number7 think? Since when did you argue with jokers?

Because they're the ones who are shouting the loudest.

Because they're the ones who are getting laws changed.

Because they're the ones who are getting policies in schools, hospitals and workplaces changed.

One of the reasons that this an issue on MN is because this is primarily a site 'by parents, for parents'. And there are parents who are extremely fearful of the possible consequences for children. Small kids who are non genderconforming, who instead of just being allowed to be kids are encouraged to think of themselves as 'trans' at an age where it's really irrelevant whether they want to 'identify' as a boy, a girl or a puppy. Confused teenagers, with social media, peers, organisations such as Mermaids and even the medical profession lining up to tell them they're trans and urge them onto puberty blockers, chest binding, surgery as soon as they can - life-changing decisions which can lead to sterility. It's seriously scary stuff. There are parents who come here for support, information which isn't all singing from the approved trans hymnsheet. For some people with real dysphoria, transition may be the least worst option - but for many others it really isn't.

I'm fully against random guys using self identification just to piss the system, I'd question some participation in sports. The rest I don't give two hoots about

"there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex"

And what on earth does this have with people who are male on all of these axis (as most men are - like 99% of men) but want to declare themselves women?

Intersex is intersex. Nothing to do with perfectly standard males who get cosmetic surgery and take hormones.

Iam so it's solely based on chromosomes?

Yes.

So what about WHO guidelines on variations, what do we do with these people?

People with variations have intersex conditions and incidentally are also incredibly rare. They also have nothing to do with trans issues so I have no idea why people keep bringing them up.

Are people here saying "men" can't transition to "women" on sex grounds (in which case what about intersex etc?)

With the caveat that intersex people are not a monolith, many intersex people have repeatedly asked trans-identified people to stop appropriating intersex issues. Someone who is trans is not intersex.

Someone biologically male cannot ever become someone biologically female. They may make accommodations to their body (SRS) or to the way they present in order to mitigate any dysphoria they experience (though there are many trans-identified people who say they are not dysphoric at all), and to "live as" (whatever that means) the opposite sex, but it will not change their biological sex.

But increasingly trans-identified people are claiming to be the opposite sex (or nonbinary), despite having no dysphoria, taking no hormones, having no surgery, just having an "innate sense" of their own gender identity. Which is bullshit.

(IAmEatingACurry, I don't blame you for getting pissed off with the current state of affairs.)

The rest I don't give two hoots about

Prisons
Rape crisis centres
Domestic violence shelters
Communal changing rooms

All of those places are segregated by sex and for a very good reason. How can you say you don't care about them?

I'm also all for not pushing people into transitioning ... Does anyone actually think that here either? This forum seems to raise different fears from totally different point views with no clarity eg the intersex point - I'm not saying they're anything to do with transgender other than if you define m/f by chromosomes how do they fit into the m/f and who gets to categorise them?

Anyone online who pushes for some ridiculous outcome to gender discussions of course raise it with them - I just don't think that's the case on MN. I think on MN people hear chat of "x is threatening to women with self-identification" etc and assume you're all a tracking transgender people blanket-style. Obviously that's not the case and you support people transitioning if they want to

Oh ffs, would you please stop using people with intersex conditions as a kind of coup de grace 'proof' that trans exists. Intersex people are not generally trans, the vast majority of intersex groups want nothing to do with trans groups because so many of the people involved in them a) haven't even got a basic understanding of the issues intersex people have, b) don't have a basic understanding of what intersex conditions are, c) aren't even trans themselves and d) are batshit crazy.

Transsexualism exists all by itself without having to co opt the difficulties an unrelated group encounters.

Conflating the two just makes you look like an idiot.

Intersex are intersex - how is that not clear? Medically they might have a classification, otherwise, they can classify themselves, as they have been fighting to do.

Why are we talking about intersex, the subject is trans!