Men bashing

[PirateQueenie]

Hi all,

I don't have a real purpose to this thread other than to just voice my confusion and possibly hear some other opinions.

I would identify as feminist - although for want of a better word, I would rather say I'm an egalitarian. I enjoy reading these threads, and comment on some. But what really disheartens me is all the man-bashing Ive seen. I have a male partner who is my world ♥ wonderful male friends and family members, and when I read some of the things on here I can't help but feel very defensive of the men in my life.

Is this the new wave of feminism? Or am I missing something? When I was growing up (with my mum as an avid feminist), I never heard "men this" or "men that" it was always about how women can strengthen and empower themselves WITHOUT putting men down.

I understand! I didn't really come to feminism until my mid 30s and before that I think my beliefs were very akin to yours. It was only through being in a relationship with an alcoholic, leading me into counselling with a fantastic (male, actually) therapist , that I started to ask why a lot more, of myself, my attitudes and the world around me.

One of my favourite websites back in my awakening days was I Blame The Patriarchy. Worth reading through the archives. No harm in going back to page 1 of this section and having a read, although many of the really insightful ones have been removed for various reasons. Still some great stuff in there (was having a trawl for something the other day).

Best of luck in your journeys, nursing and feminism both.

One of my favourite websites back in my awakening days was I Blame The Patriarchy

A website that banned men from posting irrespective of their views. Ahh dear old Twisty. Ho Ho

God i've just had a very quick browse of pistonheads. I think we give men as a class too much credit sometimes . I guess some would call it locker room talk as if that excuses it. Male supremacy is the only phrase that springs to mind.

Thanks Firstshinyrobe, I'll definitely have a look :) much love

Interestingly, this image came up on my Twitter feed this morning. I know a couple of people don't have much time for Dworkin, however, I don't think there's much to argue here.

I'm not really up on Dworkin in general, but I would like to read more based on that.

All her work is available to download for free. here

She wrote beautifully, even if you don't agree with what she writes, it will make you think about women's issues in new ways.

But weirdly I've never gone away thinking that MAN was dreadful, but just that that PERSON is dreadful

I'm not having a go, just pointing out that it is interesting that you thought that about a man, but when a woman was upset at having a door held open for her, you didn't think that she was just a person, but you added her to a mental list of feminists man-bashing?

It's one of those tricks that the patriarchy plays on your mind - men are individuals, but the behaviour of a woman is taken as an example of all womankind.

God i've just had a very quick browse of pistonheads

The thing is, if you pop over there to ask some questions because your RX-8 is having warm-start issues, they're super-helpful and polite - yet all that other stuff seems to just be bubbling under the surface for so many!

I bloody LOVE Dworkin. Such a lucid thinker and writer. Such power!
I personally believe that the reason why the antifeminist insult of 'fat, hairy-legged, lesbian, dungeree-wearing feminist' (ie- a description of Dworkin) was repeated so often in such a way to make feminism unappealing to women was because of Dworkin''s mighty power to open eyes and forever change women's perceptions. In other words she and her ideas pose a huge threat to patriarchy - even though all she does is talk sense.

If there are feminists older than me that witnessed the 'hairy-legged, dungaree' stereotype gaining increasing traction in modern parlance I'd be interested to know if I'm right or wrong in that.

Dworkin was a great writer; however she did posit that all sex is rape, in which case your fathers, sons and husbands are all rapists.

I think you've over simplified and misunderstood her point. She clarifies what she meant: "What I think is that sex must not put women in a subordinate position. It must be reciprocal and not an act of aggression from a man looking only to satisfy himself. That's my point".

I know she later said that after coming under attack (from sexist idiots, mainly) but reading Intercourse it comes across as more than that.

Direct quote:

"There is never a real privacy of the body that can coexist with intercourse: with being entered. The vagina itself is muscled and the muscles have to be pushed apart. The thrusting is persistent invasion. She is opened up, split down the center. She is occupied--physically, internally, in her privacy. ... There is no analogue anywhere among subordinated groups of people to this experience of being made for intercourse: for penetration, entry, occupation."

I have never read anything she said in context without seeing intelligence in it. Speaking about vigilantes etc later I thought she sounded worn down by the struggle - but I could still see her point: if you can't get justice through ligitimate means then vigilantism is justified, and although that is a shocking thought in the UK even though conviction rates are low - I love the 'pink sari' women in India who threaten perpetrators of DV with big sticks.

Thanks Avon and I have had this argument with my obtuse block-headed brother. He said a women could feel empowered by 'enveloping' a man and a man could feel overwhelmed and 'consumed' by a woman. He said this in response to my saying being penetrated is fundementally violating, and as a woman you need to be properly psyched for it and other conditions have to be right, for it to not be unpleasant (and that men feel less violated because their dick is outside their body).

Maybe I should have posed the scenario: you have 2 doors in front of you: behind one is a woman you don't fancy who is going to ride you, behind the other is a man you don't fancy who will ejaculate up your rectum - which door do you choose?....

Avon Dworkin never asserted all heterosexual sex to be rape. I think she was rather arguing that sex as it is conceptualised within patriarchchal, heterosexual culture is continuous with rape.

Heaven knows there are valid criticisms of Dworkin, but I always felt the 'all men are rapists' reading of her to be an unfair mischaracterization.

I think she was rather arguing that sex as it is conceptualised within patriarchchal, heterosexual culture is continuous with rape.

Oh, that old chestnut

'cause nowadays men are horrible, i know only a few good. Women want to be more independent that's mean feminism.

I Blame the Patriarchy was an eye opener to me, despite liking and reading Germaine Greer previously. It is no longer active, I hope Twisty is ok, and she was very pro trans too. Her blogs on rape are so relevant and interesting.

I also like Rage Against the Manchine. Not really active either, but a young heterosexual woman who got it.

Feminist activism is not man bashing. Men should and can resolve this themselves. What's stopping them?

Agree re Dworkin as well. She simply presented the truth regarding penetrative sex and flagged up rape in marriage. Without her I still think rape in marriage would not be seen as being punishable by law.

Also you can be egalitarian and a feminist as well. The two are not exclusive.

Elendon thanks so much for reminding me about Rage Against the Manchine

I've been googling around but couldn't remember the name - I was thinking... something to do with a blue car... I would never have found it.