Men bashing

[PirateQueenie]

Hi all,

I don't have a real purpose to this thread other than to just voice my confusion and possibly hear some other opinions.

I would identify as feminist - although for want of a better word, I would rather say I'm an egalitarian. I enjoy reading these threads, and comment on some. But what really disheartens me is all the man-bashing Ive seen. I have a male partner who is my world ♥ wonderful male friends and family members, and when I read some of the things on here I can't help but feel very defensive of the men in my life.

Is this the new wave of feminism? Or am I missing something? When I was growing up (with my mum as an avid feminist), I never heard "men this" or "men that" it was always about how women can strengthen and empower themselves WITHOUT putting men down.

Pirate You said 'weak victims' - victims of male violence included stalking, harassment, online abuse, domestic violence and rape.

So, yes, when you say 'weak victims' you are calling victims of the above crimes, and all other victims of male violence, weak. You are calling victims of rape 'weak'. You are saying the problem isn't men who rape but women who are 'weak'.

I plan to have 27 cats when I have a sprawling mansion and a live-in cat helper

Random musings here.

My father and brother are actually pretty philogynous - my husband less so, though I think he would be shocked to hear me say that. He has improved through contact with me However, one of the things that feminism can do is alter your viewpoint so that you can suddenly see that things that have happened to you did not happen because you were you, but because you were female. That can be strange, and yes, it can feel disempowering because you realise that there is nothing you can do about having a vagina and a womb and generally less muscle than a male. You can also kick against the idea that you haven't got attention because you are talented or beautiful or intelligent but because, in the immortal words of Philip Roth, you have a cunt! They all have cunts! For fucking!! - i.e. that as a woman you are part of the sex class, marked for sex by having sex organs that differ from men's. It really isn't about whether the men in your life are wonderful human beings - those in my life really are, I would agree with you there.

There are times when having those things feels better/ empowering, such as having a baby, and then you can start to think, why does having a baby mean that women also get x, y z, and you're back to feeling disempowered again. Because it's true, you actually have had some power taken away. Not by an individual man, but by men and women as classes, forming the structures of society.

OP it's hard to see it at first but there is a difference between discussing men as a class and men as individuals. It's also a bit pointless to mention NAMALT(not all men ) because obviously nobody has met all the men ever, or think that absolutely every single one is a rapist/abusive/murderer.
The main issue is that many times any kind of discussion about men as a class,invariably gets sidetracked by the "men who aren't like that" argument, and feminists (on here at least) are sick and tired of having such discussions shut down and derailed.

You used the expression "man bashing" OP. A common use of words is the accusation that feminists are men haters, to which the answer has to be that if you look at the stats on sex and violence, any hating that's being done is being done by men.

Do you not find that the lovely men you know are all too aware of the risk other men pose to the women in their lives? My DH used to say he knew the worst because he'd heard how some men spoke about women. It made him very protective of his DD. She said she loved knowing her DF had her back, having a big daddy she could introduce to new boyfriends - just in case. Good men know not all men are safe with women.

Yetanother crunchy yet piquant!

OP, without sounding like a bitter old trout - open your eyes, just a bit. It's great that the men you are related to are lovely, honestly it is. I quite like the ones in my house too.

But look at the stats for domestic violence.
Look at the global stats for 'child brides'.
Look at the stats for people trafficking and sexual exploitation.
Look at the stats for girls in school vs boys in school.
Look at the porn culture and the effect it's having on women and girls.
Look at the % of women in positions of power - whether that's political or employment or whatever - against men in the same positions.

And ponder this. If Hillary Clinton had won the US election it wouldn't make women equal to men. To make women equal to men, the US would have to elect a further 44 women. To make women equal to men in that particular position of power, it would be another 176 years before a man was elected (that's assuming one term each, by the way).

You need, I think, with kindness, to do more than 'appreciate this isn't always the case'. You need to look outside your bubble. It's a hard world for women and girls, and saying that doesn't make me a 'weak victim'. It makes me a smart social observer.

StewieGMum the OP said
"rather than making us all seem weak victims"

I think the seem changes the whole meaning of the sentence. Women are perceived to be weak, even if they aren't.

I come from an male heavy family and I know what you mean.

Stewie - I didn't say women who are victims of male violence are weak. Never. Don't be such a nasty person.

The reason women often talk about feminism and women's liberation is that the term "sexual equality" is capable of misinterpretation. You could say - and men often do - that if women want equality they should compete against men in sports, for example, or be refused maternity leave on the basis that men don't get it.

The sexes are different in various key physical ways - reproduction, strength, lung capacity - but not in terms of intellect or character. Men are not better leaders or more logical than women, for instance, though some people insist they are.

We won't achieve equality by treating men and women exactly the same. For women to get equality in terms of outcome, we need to allow for the toll childbearing takes physically and financially, and examine its effects on women's careers, pension provision, etc. Then there's the patterns of behaviour revealed by class analysis. For example, because girls are far less likely to do STEM subjects at university, there are scholarships in those fields which are exclusively for girls.

Equality is a bit of a red herring word. That's why I use feminism or women's liberation.

Another weak victim here, although I don't have cats, just dogs.

I do appreciate the irony of calling cadno out for being mean to men, when his sole posting performance is now linked to telling people that rape isn't actually rape on threads about... um... rape.

How shall I bash the men in my life... open or close handed, do you think?

I think, that if you want to get a grip on this, I might suggest you pop over to PistonHeads (who actually, last time I was there, are generally a lovely bunch), onto whatever seems like the best equivalent to this feminism board, and suggest that they might be being a bit mean about women and we should all just get along.

Compare and contrast responses, and see if you think we're overly harsh in comparison.

The theory of egalitarianism is all well and good, but if you don't start with an analysis of the ways in which men and women aren't equal in the world, then how do you implement any action? What would you even be doing? Wanting everything to be perfect for everyone sounds like a recipe for never getting anything done to me.

If you're new around here you're probably not aware of the extent to which this board is troubled by anti-feminist troublemakers and trolls. . They goad, derail and in general do their best to prevent us from talking about feminist subjects that we want to discuss with other feminists. Would you go to a board dedicated to discussing climate change and tell them you don't believe in global warming? No, you wouldn't, because that would make you an arse. You'd go there because you wanted to discuss with like minded people, who have an interest in the topic and want to learn more from each other, not people who think your worldview is bollocks. Same goes for here.

Xenophile - oh gosh really?! I hadn't seen that post but yeah, he doesn't sound like the most popular person on here. As I said I didn't realise at the time it was a man, as the name could have been either, so sorry for that mistake. I also haven't called anyone weak - I said that some comments I'd read seemed to paint women in a vulnerable / victim light. Something I am unfamiliar with as I was raised to believe women were strong and capable of whatever they wanted.

They are Pirate, but unfortunately this doesn't stop men oppressing them.

Yes, women are strong and capable. Why do you think that women are under represented in key positions of power and influence, and over represented in statistics to do with violence e.g. domestic violence and murder stats, despite women in general being strong and capable?

Women are vulnerable in lots of ways Queenie. Most women are physically weaker than most men. Combine that with most of the violence in the world being commited by men, then that renders us vulnerable. That doesn't mean we are weak. And that's without even bringing in how childbearing renders us even more vulnerable.

If it were really true that women could achieve everything they wanted to in our society then I would actually have to conclude that women were a bit rubbish, because men are still running the show. I don't think women are rubbish, I think we are oppressed.

Totally off topic, but re. "I'd quite like to be a lesbian spinster, but I don't know if I could handle 27 cats. I mean, I'd need an awfully big bed and can you imagine the litter boxes?"

DS found an awesome youtube video earlier, with 3 men in their thirties sharing a house which they'd lovingly modified to accommodate their vast collection of cats - special cat ramps/tunnels connecting all the rooms, litter trays in cupboards which vented to the outside to deal with the smell, half a dozen roombas to keep on top of the hair. Hi Tech is the way to go on mad cat ownership! If only there were more men like them, using their powers for good .

Thanks everyone, someone already pointed me in the direction of "the thin red line". Is there anything else people can point me in the direction of? Cheers x

Queenie ,yes women are strong and capable,but do society and men(as a class) really allow them to do what they want?
Just look at the official rape "advice" don't wear this,don't do that,don't drink,don't walk home alone etc etc etc. Everything is about limiting women and their choices.
The opportunity for careers that gets hindered when having a baby or childcare responsibilities come in question.
The vilifying of being a SAHM or WOHM.
The demand of looking a certain way or wearing certain things for some jobs. High heels anyone?

I could go on.

Now I won't hear a bad word about these men.

That was the video DS showed me, Lass - thanks for finding it. Yes, I agree, won't hear a thing against these guys. I particularly love the spiral.

When I hear 'man bashing' comments they rarely come from feminists.

Think of all the times you've heard 'ooh, men are useless', and how many adverts show men as incompetent. How many sitcoms have a stupid man who is a bad son, father, husband and friend, incapable of doing anything for anyone else, for remembering anyone's birthday, who can't take care of his own kids - who literally can't put a jumper on the right way round despite being an adult.

Every feminist I know believes men to be equally capable as women and expects better.

RebelRogue thanks for your reply! I admit my ignorance (I had to Google those abbreviations for one) 🙈
I think I honestly hadn't thought that much about it, I'm sorry to say! I would like to know more though, I actually feel abit ashamed now as a female who isn't more aware of the social issues!

I never saw you as a crazy cat lady Lass, it's strangely satisfying that you are

Feeling a bit sorry for you OP.
I remember how happy I was in my bubble, thinking that the majority of men are decent and respectful, and that maybe women needed to be a bit less bitter and try harder.

But the patriarchy is one of those inconvenient truths that, once seen, cannot be unseen - and will affect your life as a woman forever.