Cis labels

[sooperdooper]

I'm kind of new to reaching 'Peak Trans' and I had this thought...

So if, as the trans lobby keeps repeating 'trans women are women', why would they need to call biological women 'cis'?

If they really are female there would be no need for a distinction because by simply 'identifying' as female they would be

So they've made the distinction themselves by labelling biological women cis, doesn't that make the whole discussion about 'trans women being women' invalid by their own admission?

Sorry if this is totally obvious but I'm trying to work through my own thoughts on this

"I am a radical feminist and will defend any woman to the last breath in my body.........."
and that includes calling them thick, misogynistic, or transphobic if they dare disagree with trans ideology on a feminist discussion board.

If that is your style of 'defence', frankly I'd prefer an honest attack to this newspeak style nonsense. But that that is what we already know to expect from certain quarters. 'Radical feminists' who are neither radical (nor frankly very feminist), defence that is actually attack, and the old, old favourite phrase 'transwomen are women'.

I don't think that I'm using subset in the same way as you seem to be taking it.

Black hair and brown hair are both subsets of 'hair'. It's just describing groups-within-the-group.

A women is an adult human female.
A MTT is an adult human male.

How can an MTT be a women, without changing the definition of the words women, male and female?

Cis slightly offends me as the meaning of it is basically..you are happy with your body and follow sex stereotypes.

I am NOT cis by any definition. However I am female, and a woman.

I am also trans according to stonewall..as I keep pointing out as its ridiculous. I am an adult female, unhappy with my body after pregnancies and such but that does not mean I fancy a surgically created penis either, I do more masculine things than feminine, however I have long hair and wear dresses for special occasions. I have both feminine and masculine interests. I would have thought I was a pretty 'normal' female tbh. But no. I am trans. Only way to be 'cis' is to follow sex stereotypes to a tee. I would bet only a handful of people in the world are actually cis by that definition. the rest of us are trans.

I do believe that trans women are women. I have taken in everything that you all have said, but I don't believe that trans people either have body dystrophia or are perverts.

I no longer like the term 'cis', though. I also understand the argument regarding toilets, hospitals, etc. I just think we need to find a way to safeguard it so we can all live happily and comfortably with on another.

I do think that a proportion of the transactivists have been beyond horrific with some of their language and threats of violence, but I haven't seen what exactly has been said to them. Still, if you're fighting for rights and campaigning, rise above it and don't go down the path of being abusive.

I didn't like some of the stuff I read in that trans sport discussion on AIBU, but regardless of our differences in opinion, I do like all of you.

And even taking the trans own definition of the word 'cis' doesn't work. They apply it against their own definition all the time. They simply apply it to all women who are not trans.

Their definition is it's a woman who is comfortable with her gender identity. But that's not how they apply it.

Furthermore, they have no idea what a woman's gender identity is (if she decides she needs one).

It's just a blanket term for not trans.

Woman is sufficient, thank you.

"I do believe that trans women are women" So, for you, a women is a belief system like religion. If someone believes they are a women, than they are. A women is an adult human? What do you call adult human females?

Phyllis - do you think that 'transwomen are not women' is the same as saying 'transwomen are deviants'? It's really not the same thing.
Transwomen are not women, because woman is not a feeling in your head, it's a material reality for which the necessary conditions are being adult, human and female.

Agreed, Datun. The nearest gender for me is 'agender', meaning I don't have a gender to match my sex, so I can't be cis. Does that mean I'm a transwomen, a transman or something else completely?

The use of the term "cis" functions to create two subsets of woman, "cis" and "trans", with transwomen becoming just another subset of women, like Spanish women or tall women. This is dishonest, as transwomen, by definition, are males. Radical feminism, which analyses the position of women as a sex class, cannot, and never will, centre men.

NotCarylChurchill, you may be a liberal feminist. There are plenty of libfems who support Everyday Feminism, approve of EF's ghastly Riley J Dennis and swallow the claim that "transwomen are women." No one who believes men can be women is a radfem because you cannot do the work of radical feminism without sex based class analysis.

BigDeskBob

It's very frustrating. I don't believe in the concept of gender. What's the betting there's a gender for someone who disbelieves in the concept of gender?!

People are trying to create labels and boxes for every single, minute , irrelevant thought that enters someone's head.

Furthermore, they have no idea what a woman's gender identity is (if she decides she needs one).

Yes..and assuming someones gender identity is 'actually literal violence' isn't it?

If I were a teenager today, I'd be gender fluid because that can mean pretty much anything you want it to mean. It's a perfect get out.

Call me simplistic or naive but... I am old and not down with the kids

I wonder why we have all these gender labels now?

It's the labeling of everything that really interests me ( ok the trans activist issue really concerns me though).

I think back to my youth and we had labels but they were based on music tastes and fashion statements - we had mods, rockers and punks (me) as well as other subgroups.

That part of youth culture today seems to have become homogenised therefore they are trying to find their own identity which has come out as all these different genders.

I was androgynous as a youth - I wore men's clothes and had a fabulous Mohican. When I got pregnant and obviously had a bump that caused a lot of stir. But that was a phase... I am now a boring old woman ( but still po go - ing and spitting in my head). My androgynous look was just that - a fashion statement. I had sexual relationships with both boys and girls but I always knew I was a girl. I was not offended if I was called Mr or Miss ..... And I find expect everybody else to walk on eggshells around me.

I have a gay daughter. She has a MTT friend ( no surgery) and is very pro trans. The friend is a classic narcissist and a really horrible person. I have tried to explain my concerns and I have been told I am a transphobe.

There is a difference between teenagers picking from a menu of identities, and trans-people. Trans-people generally pick one identity. That of the opposite sex. That's why it's reinforcing gender stereotypes.

All the other identities appear to me to me to do with sex and/or clothes.

One of the gender identities is, you're only interested in someone of the opposite sex for romantic reasons, for a limited period, but you might change to another identity which means you are interested in them sexually after a certain time.

So in other words you don't sleep with someone on first date.

It's just putting labels on every expression of personality in order to what? Belong? Be individual? Be important?

I have put my foot in it ( according to my daughter)

We gave her and her two friends a lift in the car. Three young women sat in the back of my car. I say

'Right ladies where am I to drop you off'

Oh dear

Apparently I offended of her friends who, even though they were wearing a short skirt make up etc, is queer.... I had not used the correct pronoun

I had offended them

No one had told me

Apparently I should've known....

I am not a mind reader .......

I have decided to never open my mouth again......

I think for some, its just a way to shock their parents or at least distance themselves from the previous generation. Its difficult to shock using music, fashion even piercings and tattoo any more. So they are using gender. I don't think they want you to know what to say, they want you to not understand them.

And I ment to add. All of that is fine when you are 15. Its a natural part of growing up. Its when the adults do it I'm

BigDeskBob

That's right. Youth is soo esoteric and incomprehensible. Always.

They don't realise that most of the time they're just reinventing the wheel. As did we.

As a parent, I can see that I'm going to have to let my children explore and rebel, while trying to keep them safe. So I've promised myself I won't laugh if they declare their new genders to me.

But I'm furious when the use of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, and surgery are talked about like its normal, safe and what is need to stay alive. These things are so very risky and life changing. And its talked about in schools without any critical discussion. Its madness.

BigDeskBob, I see it as identity and what they believe themselves, how they feel.

Gallavich, not at all. Trans women not being women is someone's belief. Trans women being deviant is someone stereotyping all trans women.

I sort of roll my eyes at 56 genders. I hate to say that and I don't want to sound ignorant, but it reminds me of teenagers going through a phase like being a goth or an emo. I absolutely understand the ideology and identity between femme, butch (although, some find those terms derogatory) and being gender ambiguous, but I've seen some strange pronouns out there.

inaclearingstandsaboxer

I saw a meme recently that read :

If someone doesn't use your correct pronouns - it's because they're NOT your correct pronouns.

You are absolutely correct, you are not a mind reader. And for me, all this pronouns shite (that cannot be divined, and if they're that bothered about really shouldn't they inform you in advance?) is actually an attempt to produce exactly what this incident has produced - your (exasperated?) decision to "to never open my mouth again......". That's the whole shebang - to cow you into submission, to shut you up, to make you feel uncomfortable. Fuck 'em. I'd start telling them that my pronouns are 'Majesty/Master/Overlord'.

Apparently I should've known....

Yeah its all slightly ridiculous. You cam commit 'literal violence' against someone by 'assuming their gender' yet its fine to assume everyone but you is 'cis'.

Its just another teenage trend, but my fucking god its annoying. I feel sorry for those who actually do suffer sex dysphoria as all this bandwagon jumping makes it look like a bloody joke.

I have decided to never open my mouth again......

No, tell the silly little fools they'll be walking next time. What a nerve.

Spot on, @venusinscorpio! If someone took the huff with me because I had made a genuine and honest mistake, they wouldn't be getting any more lifts from me.