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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Gender Critical Manifesto

251 replies

venusinscorpio · 19/04/2017 20:21

Let's put a list of salient points together about what the issues are with the trans agenda. It will be a useful resource.

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 28/04/2017 20:38

Definitely! We can use short quotes and reference them.

venusinscorpio · 28/04/2017 20:43

At least we can say what chapter, page etc, then if anyone reading has access or is curious enough to go to a library they can look it up.

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 28/04/2017 20:47

AGP is also included in the gender dysphoria chapter -

Under 'Risk and Prognostic Factors' (pp 456-7) - Additional predisposing factors under consideration, especially in individuals with late-onset gender dysphoria (adolescence, adulthood), include habitual fetishistic transvestism developing into autogynephilia (i.e., sexual arousal associated with the thought or image of oneself as a woman) and other forms of more general social, psychological, or developmental problems.

That's going in.

PencilsInSpace · 28/04/2017 20:47

The dodgy PDF I found is here.

PencilsInSpace · 28/04/2017 22:08

Just catching up with the stonewall manifesto:

Reform the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to get rid of the intrusive medical tests that trans people must go through to have their gender recognised, and provide recognition for non-binary identities.

Fuck off.

Reform the Equality Act 2010 to ensure that it protects all trans people by changing the protected characteristic of ‘gender reassignment’ to ‘gender identity’ and removing all outdated terminology including ‘transsexual’ and ‘gender reassignment’.

Fuck off.

Review the need for gender markers in official documents and introduce an ‘X’. category where markers are needed to enable non-binary identities to be recognised.

Partially fuck off.

Develop practical statutory guidance on supporting trans young people at school.

Hmm

Improve access to Gender Identity Services, which are currently not equipped to meet the needs of all trans people seeking their services.

Hmm

They haven't made a strong statement on sport which is interesting.

ghostlyghoulie · 28/04/2017 22:41

Is this article useful as an analysis of how the flawed suicide statistics are used?
4thwavenow.com/2015/08/03/the-41-trans-suicide-rate-a-tale-of-flawed-data-and-lazy-journalists/

Elanetical · 28/04/2017 22:51

I've fixed it for them.

Reform the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to recognise that sex and gender are not equivalent, allowing anyone to identify as any gender variant they like but enshrining biological sex as something that cannot be changed, and noting that gender is inherently impossible to categorically define thus is of limited relevance in law and public policy.

Reform the Equality Act 2010 to ensure that it protects all people and does not clog up the court system by only protecting characteristics that can categorically be defined in an objective fashion.

Review the use of gender in all official documents and replace it with "sex" where biological sex is the intended purpose of the question as a means of identification.

Develop practical statutory guidance on supporting female young people at school.

Improve access to Women's Support Services, which are currently not equipped to meet the needs of all female people seeking their services.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/04/2017 23:42

Vast improvement, elan

BetsyM00 · 29/04/2017 15:16

I have fact checked all the criminals mentioned in the youtube video that RogueBiscuit posted (). I won't post all the links to each crime but everything in the video is legitimate.

I've done the same for the other video made by Jane Williams ().

I have also posted more links on the Reference thread. I've been trying to keep up-to-date with sports issues and UK based crime - don't know if these will be of any use to you.

PencilsInSpace · 30/04/2017 07:57

Thanks for doing all that checking BetsyM00.

Good news on Miller's private member's bill:

This Bill was expected to have its second reading debate on Friday 12 May 2017.

However, as a General Election has now been called and Parliament will be dissolved from 3 May 2017, the Bill falls and no further action will be taken.

It was never likely to become law but it's good that the pressure is off for a bit.

Sterling work on the Terfs n bigots page BMacklin. We need some examples. Things that spring to mind -

  • That SU that moved that 'Julie Bindle [sic] is vile'
  • The terf blockbot thing that turned out to be run by a sex offender
  • Michfest
  • Vancouver women's library

I think we need a page on sex vs. gender and the 'women are different to men' stuff might be better placed there, along with some of the stuff from the definitions page.

We mustn't forget the original purpose of the wiki and this thread - we need to boil stuff down to a set of points we can all agree on.

BetsyM00 · 30/04/2017 09:28

Fantastic news about the bill! Thanks Pencils

BetsyM00 · 30/04/2017 10:36

With regards to crime, as well as this article which suggests MTT retain male patterns of criminality, I also found the full text of this study on 315 transgender prisoners in California.

The Findings section on page 844 suggests there are differences between transgender prisoners and the larger population of male inmates - a higher proportion of transgender inmates classified as Level 3 and Level 4 (high security), a higher proportion of property crimes committed, a higher proportion of mental health problems and a higher proportion of sex offenders.

Looking at the crimes reported in the media it always seemed to me that, while the rate of offences may be similar, MTT committed a disproportionately higher number of sexually motivated crimes - but it is hard to be sure as the media tends to only report the more salacious stories. This paper is the first I have found that supports this view. Would be good if any other studies could be found.

BMacklin · 30/04/2017 12:55

That's excellent fact checking Betsy thank you very much.

pencils you're welcome and yes I agree re: sex vs gender.

BMacklin · 30/04/2017 13:33

Right, sex vs gender page is now there and I've moved some stuff over and written some stuff in. FYI I have highlighted notes to editors in red on the page as I find it difficult to make sense in the comments section at the bottom.

pencils I'll have to have a google of those examples you gave for the Terfs and Bigots page but I'm on it.

PencilsInSpace · 30/04/2017 14:40

Brilliant!

I just found what I've been looking for for ages - the WHO definitions -

Sex - The different biological and physiological characteristics of males and females, such as reproductive organs, chromosomes, hormones, etc.

Gender - Refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed. The concept of gender includes five important elements: relational, hierarchical, historical, contextual and institutional. While most people are born either male or female, they are taught appropriate norms and behaviours – including how they should interact with others of the same or opposite sex within households, communities and work places. When individuals or groups do not “fit” established gender norms they often face stigma, discriminatory practices or social exclusion – all of which adversely affect health.

There was a better page which I think was also WHO which gave examples of gender, like women in Saudi Arabia not being allowed to drive. I can't find it now, does anybody happen to have that link?

PencilsInSpace · 30/04/2017 15:37

I think we're both editing the same stuff on the sex vs gender page BMacklin Grin I'll stop!

BetsyM00, thanks for the link to the trans inmate study, I hadn't seen that one. The two youtube videos - is there much overlap? I'm wondering whether to include both - I just have the second one there at the moment.

BetsyM00 · 30/04/2017 18:10

Pencils There's no overlap in the videos. The second one (dated Aug 2016) was made in response to the transactivists who claimed that the men highlighted in the first video were not "really" transgender. The men in the second video explicitly identify as transgender.

If that's their argument, I think it's worth having both videos as it demonstrates women certainly can't differentiate between what is a 'real' MTT or not.

Italiangreyhound · 30/04/2017 18:54

This is really interesting.

pencils is the bill really dead because of general election. Can I allow myself a little "Hallelujah"!!!

Mrs May did something good!

Flowers
Elanetical · 30/04/2017 19:14

I don't think it means the bill is fully dead, does it? I think it just means that as a bill has to complete its full cycle in one session of parliament, and parliament is being dissolved this week in advance of the election, the bill has to start again at the beginning of the process in the next parliament. It wasn't even at second reading yet.

PencilsInSpace · 30/04/2017 21:08

The Bill is dead, yes Grin

She would have to start again in the next parliament. As far as I know there's nothing to stop her doing that (more than happy to be wrong!)

I think the one to watch now is the government review of the GRA. This is the self-identification thing.

PencilsInSpace · 01/05/2017 19:36

This says a good 2/3 of what we want to say I reckon, and it says it clearly, simply and politely. It's written evidence for the maria miller report from Women and Girls Equality Network, submitted by Julia Long.

venusinscorpio · 01/05/2017 23:49

It does. It's great.

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 02/05/2017 01:51

Just wanted to say you are all doing amazing sterling work. Thanks

Elanetical · 02/05/2017 11:12

Should we include excerpts from Hansard relevant to the reading of key bills? And also party standard responses / statements from specific MPs? More United, for example, are deciding which candidates to back in the GE at the moment, and it seems like an opportunity to be heard.

Elanetical · 02/05/2017 11:15

That submission is great, Pencils.

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