Just a thought

[YellowChicken]

feminism

the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

Just a thought and I can see me getting my butt handed to me but if feminism is about equality of sexes then should it not support both sexes?
I understand alot of issues in the world directly affect women but sometimes I fine feminism to be used as a big hate compain against men when really it should be bringing us all together and creating a fair and equal society.

Dont get me wrong im all for what feminism is but sometimes I feel that the idea of equality.

An example

I cant say all women do but alot objectify men on their appearance. I seem many people on here talk about "sexy" men in a derogatory way. A crush that makes their "fanny tingle" (yes iv read that) is no different to a guy saying a woman makes his cock hard.
A guy looking at a women body and making derogatory comments is no different from a female seeing a topless guys and making comments about his body.

However there are movements about how men should not look at a womans body and be aroused by it. That is just basic biology

Porn is another example people focus on the women in porn but there are just as many men in porn and alot of women watch porn. The idea that women in porn make unreachable expectations of how a woman should look and behave in the bedroom can be an issue with men in porn. Be it gay, tv or heterosexual.

Who is speaking up for them men?

The idea that women can only be sexually assaulted when I know many males who have been.
Who is sticking up for them men?

The pension age is lower for females, we have the choice of terminating a pregnancy regardless of how a male thinks or feels, we more often then not get full custody of children.

And thats just a few examples.

I often think the true meaning of equality is forgotten.

Right light me up

Men have the power to change anything they want. If they really wanted equality, they'd have it.

But that would mean they'd have to pay child support and stop killing us.

'Men should get just as much time with their child its insane to say otherwise.'

Well thankfully family law in this country is about the best interests of the children. It isn't perfect by any stretch but far better than focusing on the rights of the adults to have equal share of their 'possession'.

Im asking questions to see if feminism could be more then just womens rights I always speak out for equality. I was just curious if this is something feminism could also bring to the table. If course womens needs are high but again as I say men are also victimised.
While speaking out about such issues could it not be men and women and not just women.

Also as for the porn only shows women there are alot of men who are directed by women, porn that doesnt even involve women so yes men can be objectified.

My partner was sexually assaulted at 16 by two women he worked with. I asked him once why he never spoke up and he said that noone believes that a man can be abused.
I had a friend get out of an abusive relationship who said he never thought anyone would believe him.
My bil was a victim of an abusive relationship he now has lost his left arm.

Could feminism help to encourage men that we will believe them? Encourage then to speak up if these things happen?

I have never once said the work being done is not amazing but do you think we could stretch feminism to include men and make them feel like we at least believe it is happening to then aswell as women.
Its a huge movement and a amazing one and could be the thing that makes men go to the police or the doctor or whatever?

Just a thought

A guy looking at a women body and making derogatory comments is no different from a female seeing a topless guys and making comments about his body

Not only is the former far more prevalent but it's also different. The threat of sexual violence is only there in the former. That man could do whatever he says to the woman he says it about. Women know this threat is ever present. Men and boys don't learn from a young age they need to walk certain ways, avoid certain routes, cross the road when a group of women are approaching, avoid a carriage with a group of women or avoid being alone in a carriage with a woman etc for fear of what might happen. A man making comments about a woman (or girl) knows he could carry out those acts, as do we. We are harassed routinely from when were young teenagers and to even claim this objectification is comparable is not only ridiculous but seeks to stop us challenging it.

This thread has a "school holidays loose end" feel to it.

I presume you'll be telling the Mankind charity which supports male victims of sexual abuse they're anti equality and should be saying "men and women" then? And telling the countless sexist and misogynist men out there they should be more supportive of equality?

You clearly have an agenda and are ignoring all the points being made to you.

Porn is another example people focus on the women in porn but there are just as many men in porn and alot of women watch porn.
Not the same. More men watch porn than women, so the majority of porn concentrates on the use and degradation of women, while the men just happily get their rocks off.
I've also seen stats on the link between porn use and rape - I imagine fewer women would be influenced in the same way by regular porn use.

Can I ask again what was the point of your example about abortion? There is no equal say to be had there because it only affects women's bodies. Yes women have the veto but they also take on the whole risk of pregnancy too. What is your solution?

This thread has a "school holidays loose end" feel to it.

True, I shouldn't be rising to it as it's probably a deliberate wind up.

Im asking questions to see if feminism could be more then just womens rights

Liberal feminism is now so inclusive it has disappeared and is now about men and MTT's. Thats the end result of what you ask for.

I dont ask for womens rights to be forgotten I dont ask for men to be the center I ask for equality

Men should get just as much time with their child its insane to say otherwise.

OK then, off they pop and ask for flexitime, exercise their right to parental leave, make sure they know when sportsday, dental appointments are, that they trim the kids nails and make sure they go out and get new pants when the kids are growing out of the old ones etc.

They can already do all this stuff, and if they are being prevented somehow, I fully support them getting involved in their children's lives.

I don't think it's feminists forgetting the true meaning of equality. If I have three biscuits and you have one biscuit, is it more equal to give you two biscuits or is it more equal to give both of us two biscuits? Sure, by giving us both two biscuits, you're being fair, but i still have more biscuits than you. Likewise, equalising the playing field between men and women may look like women are getting unfair advantages but it's because men had more rights to start with!

A few questions. If there are problems that men have, is it caused by men and the patriarchy or feminists and women? Can you honestly tell me women and feminists are systematically oppressing men?

Let me ask you something. What's the difference between:
Women on here calling a man sexy and being sexually attracted to say a male heart throb

AND

Women systematically being treated AS objects, as compilations of sexy body parts like boobs, legs, arms. Women not being able to walk down the street without heckles to countries where they must cover up because their just existing is tempting to men. Women who do not conform to the beauty ideals being discarded and treated badly such as the anger towards fat women. The sexualisation of girl children. Women's achievements being reduced down to their beauty - women who do well academically or politically have their achievements minimised - "yeah but she's ugly/dresses badly" or "yeah she might have won the nobel peace prize but more importantly she is so HOT"
Can you honestly say this happens to men? Can you link me to any movements saying men should not look at women's bodies and be aroused by it. That exact phrasing? Or are you exaggerating the purpose of campaigns about men treating women as headless body parts because this feeds in to how real men see real women - men only talking to breasts, men reducing women down to how they can sexually satisfy a man. I would HOPE my boyfriend is aroused by my body - however i, and other women, are more than our bodies.

I don't think the issue in porn is solely the unrealistic expectation of bodies and sex. The money maker in porn is what is created for and by straight men. Read up on some of the misogynistic comments pornographers make about female porn actresses, and read their experiences. Explain to me why with the rise of more intensive degrading porn the language of sex has changed amongst young men. Some anecdata for you - in the three years since i first started having sexual relationships i have been told by almost all of the men they would like to rape, destroy, damage me, treat me like a whore, break my holes, work me like a horse, spit on me, slap me in the face with their dick, and come on my face. An interesting quote which i'll paraphrase from a pornographer mentioned the art of the come shot on a womans face. An act like that is a domineering and powerful one because and men like that to imagine getting back at all the women who have wronged him. Are women who watch porn doing this to men? Are they the ones watching the teen category, and women getting fucked by a conveyor belt of men? Is the market crying out for more and more extreme and violent porn... for the benefit of women? Am I wrong in thinking the most common category for women to watch - straight women - are in fact the same sex genres?

Who is speaking up for them? Well it should be the MRAs but they're too busy silencing feminists and calling us triggered? Perhaps you could have a word with them?

It is not feminists denying sexually assaulted men exist, nor denying them a voice. The feminist language around rape and sexual violence almost always acknowledges men, whilst also acknowledging the culture of sexual violence between men and women. We can address the ideas of college frats considering not fucking a vulnerable drunk woman a waste and the number of men that think their gfs have ceded their right to say no once they become their girlfriend whilst acknowledging men also can be raped and sexually assaulted and fighting for their access to appropriate help.

Why do you think the pension age is lower for women? Have a think.

And so if a man wants a woman to have a baby, he should be able to override her choice not to have a baby? At what point does the woman get to choose what happens to HER body? At what point does a woman get to say no to a physically and emotionally taxing nine months of a child growing in her body which could possibly leave her seriously sick or dead? If a man wants a fucking child he needs to find a woman who is happy to carry it.

Again, why do you think women most likely get custody? What ideas in society contributed to that, and do you think feminists support them?

💡

Fauchelevent that's a brilliant post. I'm going to save it when I'm on my laptop if I may. So (sadly) well put.

Two things i'm wondering about

If gay rights can be extended to straight people too, because don't heteros end up homeless too???? Where are the cemeteries for ALIVE people? I like lying down and being given flowers too!!

And secondly why posters always think a controversial OP must be a teen on their school holidays as if 15 and 16 year olds really care about winding up MNers...

Why can women override the fact that he doesnt want a baby?
Hes expected to pay for a child he never wanted because a women decides she wants to have said baby.
But the other way round is not right?

So the original poster decides to ignore the countless brilliant points made to suggest men should be able to dictate whether a woman may have an abortion. Says a lot.

as if 15 and 16 year olds really care about winding up MNers

There are boys I've come across who probably would if they thought of it.

To me there is a dual nature to these arguments. Society is, and should be, concerned with individual rights and conditions, and those of groups.

But there is a question of society on a large scale. We have done some things well, but as BF Skinner says, History is a study of failure. Our systems (patriarchy, capitalism, colonialism) have brought us to the edge of destruction.

I firmly believe that our survival depends on all segments functioning at full power.

Oh yellow don't be thick

Men can choose whether to ejaculate sperm into a woman's vagina. That is their right.
Women can choose to terminate a pregnancy that is taking place in their own body, that is their right.

How do you foresee men having equal rights when it comes to terminating pregnancies?
Should a woman be forced to have a termination if she doesn't want one, because the man does?
Should a woman be forced to gestate a baby and hand it over to a man against her will because he wants the pregnancy to continue and she doesn't?
Think about it

The other way round is not a right because the woman has to carry it. Yellow tell me something, if today a man you don't know from Adam magics a baby in your stomach and takes you to court to tell you you MUST carry it, wouldn't you protest just a little? You have to put your body through something very taxing and it could even kill you but you have to carry it because he says. If you think men should get a say in whether women continue with the pregancy where do you draw the line? Have you read The Handmaids Tale?

And are you really comparing a man paying maintenance for a child he doesn't want to raise, to a woman declining to go through a pregnancy? If a man doesn't want a child but his partner continues to have the child, whose body will it grow in? Who will have to change her life as it grows? Whose body does it come out of, either through a labour process or caesarean - neither of which are easy? If he chooses not to keep contact who will raise the child for 18 years and shoulder the parenting and the shame of being a single parent?

But asking for a monthly stipend - that's the real oppression.

Look men do feel threatened do feel objectified do feel oppressed in many ways.
There is no logical reason the pension age is lower
Men are objectified and to suggest all men are rapist is ridiculous
Iv never felt the need to cross the road because a few men were walking down the street
It is not men who create the idea of beauty but the likes of celebs and media

I dont blame feminism but you all blame men

I think the OP's latest post shows they're not here in good faith or for genuine debate.

officer don't you love how "feminists are the real bigots" campaigners always have new and original arguments that have certainly never been refuted a thousand times?