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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

OP posts:
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Datun · 12/04/2017 10:28

birdbandit

I'm really sorry to hear that, genuinely. Relationship breakdown, for whatever reason, is awful. It must be very difficult for you reading these threads.

If you google 'trans widows', you will find sites where women have had the same experience as you and have found support.

PoochSmooch · 12/04/2017 11:27

I'm sorry, birdbandit Flowers what a mess.

SirVixofVixHall · 12/04/2017 14:57

I've been on the receiving end of someone fitting points 3 and 6 on Mikey's list. I was working in a vintage clothes shop, we sometimes got men in buying things for "my wife, she's the same size as me"...which didn't bother me at all, but there was one man who the owner had mentioned , who had a thing for nighties etc. She said he was "harmless" and I was v young at the time. He came in, and looked through all the nightdresses and slips, fingering everything. Then he asked to try something on. I was reluctant to let him as I found him very creepy, but as we had one single changing cubicle, not a shared one, and he said that he always tried things on, I said ok. After him making me fetch various different things for him to try, and me getting more and more bothered but not knowing how to tackle him, and wanting to be polite, he eventually stepped out into the shop, stood in front of me in a silk nightdress and nothing else, pointed his erection at me and said "what do you think I look like in this?" I was so shocked I couldn't say anything, he went back in, changed and left, and I didn't even call the police as I was so shock and had no idea if they would just laugh at me. I am still angry about it. He was enjoying my stress and discomfort as much as he was enjoying the nighties, he very much wanted to force me to be complicit in his behaviour. It was horrible, I'm still angry about it, decades later.

Meeep · 12/04/2017 15:03

*have you paid any attention to feminism at all?
Feminists have always been against cosmetic surgery being done to women to make them more appealing to the male gaze.

The reason we are not angry at the poor women who ruin their health with silicone implants in their breasts is that they don't harm us.*

I feel like perpetuating unrealistic sexual ideals definitely harms other women, personally.

And on the other hand, there are loads of people - who say they are feminists - who would tell you plastic surgery is an empowering feminist choice. So perhaps I paid attention to them?

Anyway, I suspect that you don't want to discuss, or reflect, on the anger I was wondering about.
So I'll leave you to your circlejerk.

birdbandit · 12/04/2017 15:12

sirvix horrible for you. The uncomfortable thing, my husband has done stuff which made me really uncomfortable (that word feels like an understatement) and I thought that he was just so self obsessed he wasn't able to see how stressed I was. But it was all probably part of the joy for him.

Another good article about Caitlin, Woman of the Year, 2016:

www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2015/06/12/what-kind-of-woman-is-caitlyn-jenner-part-two-of-a-qa-on-autogynephilia-with-michael-bailey/

birdbandit · 12/04/2017 15:17

Just an aside, I really feel for Kris Jenner. She has been made to look like the bad guy. I wonder about where the girls heads are at. I wonder if their super sexuality is a reaction to their childhood? Kris has been vilified as a hard and ruthless "momager" but what about her journey? She married Bruce, and was lied to for a significant period of her life, she had to make an escape for herself and the kids she had with him.

LumelaMme · 12/04/2017 15:20

(really, do not follow that link unless you have a very strong stomach it's both graphic and gruesome). The constructed genitalia are bad enough, but those poor girls' arms and legs
@pencilsinspace, I have a very strong stomach (I can butcher an animal) but I couldn't finish looking through that link.

nightshifting · 12/04/2017 15:27

The people responsible for perpetuating those unrealistic sexual ideals are men (hence the term "male gaze"). No, feminists do not normally get angry at women who attempt to live up to the impossible physical standards put forth by the patriarchy because these women are essentially in the same boat as women who do not. We are all, as women, found lacking and we are all, as women, oppressed in a patriarchal society.

Reading the thread, it seems to me that what the other posters are angry about is: 1. that a surgically created neovagina is called a "functioning vagina" when it's not that at all, and it is blatant misogyny to say so; 2. that gender reassignement surgery is presented as the number one best treatment option for everyone who is trans or gender nonconforming when that is also not the case; and 3. that the downsides and complications of gender reassignment surgery is not being realistically presented in much of the media.

All of which strikes me as pretty reasonable things to be angry about. I'm a little angry about all of the above myself.

nightshifting · 12/04/2017 15:33

Oops. My comment was @Meeep.

Original poster
Terfinator · 12/04/2017 15:37

Yes, it sickens me that women are getting the blame for trans people's problems, problems which were created by men! Angry

OP posts:
WobblyLegs5 · 12/04/2017 16:08

I am very in shockable. I looked at that link with no problem. But it's like looking at what some criminal minds killer has done to their victims bodies, not looking at actual human beings who will then live with the end result of this. The idea of intimately touching one of those murder victim like reconstructions. ...... scary.

Datun · 12/04/2017 16:11

SirVixofVixHall

What a horrible thing to happen to you. But it is very illustrative of the reason women have a problem with the transwomen are women' mantra.

Under current legislation, that perv in the nightie, would not be doing anything wrong. And you feeling uncomfortable would be your problem. If you complained, you would be discriminatory.

I'm not sure how the presence of an erection would make any difference.

As far as I'm aware, a woman being sexually aroused, in a shop, say, isn't committing any kind of crime.

So if a man is legally a woman, despite the presence of a boner, does it mean that everyone should be fine with it??

RogueBiscuit · 12/04/2017 16:49

Sirvix, that sounds sickening. There's lots of this sort of thing on reddit and they get a huge thrill out of upsetting women. They also brag about leaving semen on items for women to unknowingly handle.

Caitlyn Jenner
SirVixofVixHall · 12/04/2017 17:18

Uggh. The nightdress was removed for cleaning by my boss just in case, she was really upset when I told her what had happened, as he hadn't gone as far before, he'd only lingered over the lingerie...
I am stunned daily by mens' comments on twitter, towards women who want sex-segregated spaces to continue. If I was feeling generous, (which increasingly I am not) I would think that the vast majority of men have no idea how we live our lives. They have no idea that walking home in the dark at 4pm in the Winter, if a women senses someone walking up behind her, she will have a stab of fear if that person is male. Men do not live their whole lives beyond young childhood, living in fear of us. Rawr's comments above about lesbians are deeply unpleasant for many reasons and one of them is the above. ("I'm scared that a woman will rape me/ my child" said no woman ever).

CeeBeeBee · 12/04/2017 17:32

Rogue that's really grim and it's given me another reason. To hate public toilets. What a prick.

CeeBeeBee · 12/04/2017 17:34

Really sorry it happened to you sirvix. I hope he never turned up again or at least got told to leave if he ever had the audacity to do so!

Datun · 12/04/2017 17:36

RogueBiscuit

Ugh. What a fucking animal.

CaoNiMartacus · 12/04/2017 17:36

Rogue, that anecdote is one of the most repulsive, disturbing things I've ever read.

birdbandit · 12/04/2017 17:38

What is wrong with (these) men? Where are their brakes? Is these sense of entitlement so out of control that these seem like reasonable things to do?

Pawpainting · 12/04/2017 17:39

It strikes me that many autogynephiles start out by violating women's boundaries, by wearing their mothers or sisters clothes and underwear when alone, and it absolutely becomes part of the fetish for them. Caitlyn Kenner admitted to sneaking into his daughters room when he was still presenting as Bruce and touching the clothes or something. Does anyone actually believe that's all he did? I'm not sure the female children have much contact with Caitlyn these days and I don't blame them tbh

birdbandit · 12/04/2017 17:39

And why do some women defend them?

Datun · 12/04/2017 17:41

Today 17:38 birdbandit

What is wrong with (these) men? Where are their brakes? Is these sense of entitlement so out of control that these seem like reasonable things to do?

I'm pretty certain they know it's wrong. That's part of the thrill.

I don't think you can overestimate the sexual compulsion involved. It's an obsession, fed by never-ending porn.

birdbandit · 12/04/2017 17:42

That's messed up, caitlin/Bruce said that?!? And no one said, serving over your own daughters clothes is fucking vile? He is so entitled he could say/do that?!?

Datun · 12/04/2017 17:46

Bird

...and he talks about stealing his daughter’s clothes when they were around 10 years old. He refers to them as his “little daughters” and says he thought he was “clever” and “cute” for trying on their clothes when they were out. His daughters set up a security camera in their room and caught their dad in action.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/purplesagefem.wordpress.com/2015/11/14/bruce-jenner-announces-on-camera-that-he-tried-on-his-10-year-old-daughters-clothes/amp/

birdbandit · 12/04/2017 17:46

datun oh trust me, I know about the porn. My horrible husband was obsessed at one point with his phone, all I could gather evidence of was his 30 plus times a day visiting pinterest (he called himself a weird porny XXX name -sad) to view/pin shocking stuff. And I imagine that was the least of my worries.