Caitlyn Jenner

[Terfinator]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

There are some countries where spousal rape and marrying children are legal, that doesn't make it right.

Is this just all some silly game of 'aha!' to you, Rawr? FFS!

I'm off. I've run out of patience for tonight.

Ran out of steam? Realised your logic is flawed and immoral? K.

I am fucking sick of this lesbophobic attitude that gets trotted out on these threads.

Me too, those that post them need to be reported and MNHQ should also take a stronger stance.

Males and females are just a collection of biological characteristics, many of which are internal.
No amount of discussion is going to magic ovaries up.
Trans is a perfect description as it is for someone who has a biological sex but wants a different phenotype.
In the end the phenotype doesn't change the sex. Males cannot menstruate.
We don't need to argue about how someone was brought up because that doesn't determine your sex.

Here's to hoping your son never gets raped by a woman.

I agree. There's a lot of men being raped lately.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35726292

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/10346616/Belgian-killed-by-euthanasia-after-a-botched-sex-change-operation.html
"Nathan, born Nancy, Verhelst, 44, was given legal euthanasia, most likely by lethal injection, on the grounds of "unbearable psychological suffering" on Monday afternoon. "I was ready to celebrate my new birth," he told the newspaper. "But when I looked in the mirror, I was disgusted with myself. My new breasts did not match my expectations and my new penis had symptoms of rejection. I do not want to be... a monster. "

This was posted upthread - I wanted to repost as it horrified me. The surgery went so wrong - didn't 'match their expectation' - that this individual made a rational decision to choose to end their life because of it.

Maybe they were suicidal before the operation and they saw it as their last chance to be able to live their life. But really - if there was any other way to help them accept their body and reconcile their identity/personality, reject social gender stereotypes. It just seems that colluding in the narrative that people can change sex isn't actually helpful for the people that need to be helped due to gender dysphoria. Which is massively massively sad.

Rawr

"Sex offenders are overwhelmingly white males. Nearly 99% of sex offenders in single-victim incidents were male and 6 in 10 were white (Greenfeld, 1997)"
"When men are taught to be dominant and aggressive, this often leads to hyper-masculinity, male peer support for sexual aggression, development of rape myths, and adversarial sexual beliefs (Kilmartin, 2000; Rozee & Koss, 2001). In his classic study of college date rapists, Kanin’s sample (Kanin, 1985) were significantly more sexually active, but also more sexually frustrated than controls, and believed that rape could be justified under certain conditions."
"In terms of the results, most of the hypothesized risk factors were predictive of sexual aggression, including negative gender-based attitudes, heavy alcohol use, and pornography consumption. Few men acknowledged using physical force to obtain sex, whereas more men acknowledged some form of sexual coercion."
sapac.umich.edu/article/196
Female perpetrators of sexual violence are extremely rare in comparison to male perpetrators. And interestingly, having strong, negative gender based attitudes can be a contributing factor to the risk of perpetrating.
The extremely upsetting "cotton ceiling" concept, wherein transsexual MTFs indicate a strong feeling of entitlement to sex, is also very indicative of typical male socialised attitudes.

Rawr

Ran out of steam? Realised your logic is flawed and immoral? K.

You agree that people can't change sex, you agree that autogynephiles shouldn't be accepted as a trans, you agree that transwomen retain male pattern violence.

What is it, exactly, that you are opposing here?

I absolutely cannot believe that Rawr's opinions on lesbians has been allowed to stay. You couldn't make it up!

I totally agree Terfinator, absolutely appalling.

Outraged? What a shame. Sad you only have select empathy.

Rawr do you have anything other than your own opinion to back up your claims that lesbians are a sexual threat to other women?
I'd appreciate it if you could provide well-sourced statistics for how often lesbians perpetrate sexual violence against women they are not already in an established relationship with.

Transwomen inclusive bathrooms have stalls like any other bathrooms. The logic that 'they want to rape my children!' Could be said for lesbians too, since the belief used to be that they wanted to be men.

I'm sorry, do I really need to clarify that this was a hypothetical statement? Keyword: 'used'. There are still homophobes around who do hold the belief that lesbians are all butch predators,

You all seem to be avoiding my questions about your opinions on male rape victims in other countries and are desperately clutching onto straws to make me out as a homophobe, which is comical. A group of TERF's who don't believe woman can commit rape, accusing the one person who's defending trans people of being a homophobe. Take a look in the mirror.

rape1
[reyp]
noun
1. unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim.


Rawr
"your opinions on male rape victims"
It's just as horrible when men prey on other men and boys, yes, I totally agree. That appears somewhat irrelevant to the subject at hand, though.

Rawr, right, I'm confused. Do you think that because 'we' (I'm using the royal 'we', because I'm aware that gender critical FWR posters are not the Borg) do not believe that people can magically change sex with medication, surgery, by what they wear/how they present themselves, and because we recognise that in UK law rape is a crime that you need a penis to commit - otherwise it is termed sexual assault, although can carry the same penalty if it is analogous to rape - that somehow this means that, what, we think that it doesn't matter that sometimes men are the victims of sexual assault? Eh? Has anyone you're trying to rail against said anything like that?

You have expressed an extreme homophobic opinion that you didn't initially qualify or explain that it was 'theoretical'. You did so in order to back up your own straw man argument that 'we' believe that transwomen may rape children by accesssing women-only spaces (again, eh? You suggested that!? I haven't seen anyone stacking trans people - a lot of concern and sympathy expressed, yes, objection to appropriation of women-only spaces and terms, yes, because that harms women - but no intent to harm transwomen, at all).

What I can't figure out is what any of this has to do with discussing genital 'reassignment' surgery, and the ethics and language used to describe it. Which I thought 'we' were all discussing.

It's almost as if you just wanted to come and shout TERF at everyone to 'prove' how nasty everyone is? Really, what is your point, apart from derailing the discussion at hand?

You all seem to be avoiding my questions about your opinions on male rape victims

Almost all male rape victims (in countries where rape doesn't require the use of a penis) are raped by other males.

Sexual assault by anyone on anyone is bad. Any kind of assault or violence is bad. That isn't what we were talking about, though.

It is the opposite of homophobia to believe, as gender critical feminists do, that it is perfectly fine to be an effeminate man, or a butch woman. The homophobia occurs when gender non conforming young men and women are encouraged to believe that their non conformity means that they are actually the opposite sex. Young girls who wish to pursue stereotypically masculine pursuits are increasingly being read as trans, when in fact their gender non conformity may well only have persisted into adulthood as an expression of their being gay. Encouraging them to believe they are the opposite sex, rather than letting them grow up gay seems pretty homophobic to me.

Your defence of trans people doesn't demonstrate that you're not homophobic. It might even mean the opposite.

I'm posting a blog write-up from an ex-phone sex worker. It is quite old, but still relevant as it gives an insiders view on men who fantasize about becoming women.
I think this may go to explain why men want to transition and it's not always because they are closeted homosexuals and homophobes (although they may be) or the want to be gender non-conforming. For a huge population of transitioners it is an extreme mental disorder/AGP.
Just posting this because I found it interesting and it might help contribute to this tread conversation:
AGP Explained from First Hand Experience

MightyMikey

Every sentence of that blog rings true. I'm going to repost it on another thread, if you don't mind.

It's a couple of years since I read that piece, mikey, thank you for posting it. I think it's very perceptive.

This in particular chimes with me this morning, as I talk above about childhood and gender:

Parts of the person’s childhood in which they breached gender roles are often brought up. What’s not often brought up is the fact that all children breach gender roles–that in fact, children will commit breaches of rules of all sorts, and that this is generally the way that humans learn the rules of their society. It’s not just a few kids who transgress gender roles, not even most. It’s all of them, every single one, and transgression of gender boundaries is necessary because gender roles are bullshit that must be learned, which means rules breaches and corrections are just part of the fun

Datun - Don't mind at all - post away. I think it's important to get another viewpoint instead of the usual trope "Lovely Fluffy Homosexual Male, Trapped in Female Body" that most people I speak to about this think.
PoochSmooch - I totally agree with you about children "performing" gender - I have 1 teenage son and 1 teenage daughter, both are in some ways very gender conforming to fit-in with their peers, but also very gender non-confirming to fit-in with their personality (eg my daughter is into tech and programming, my son still likes to cuddle teddies at night). Their gender confirming is my son segregating mini easter eggs, rejecting the pink eggs, for some reason (luckily I don't care what colour they are and will eat them anyway :) ). My daughter plasters on make-up that really would make a stereotypical transsexual blush.

The blog post, I usually post under the name 'notwhatiexpected' about my AGP husband. I feel sickened, it's all true. Years ago, I made a fool of myself questioning him about a recurrent phone number on our bill, in front of my sister. He confessed later that it was a sex line, I should have left him then, but I just dismissed the knowledge if that makes any sense. I bet that is what he was doing. I am so sick of all of this. He tells me now that it's all over, he doesn't want to be a woman anymore, but it'll be bullshit. He will be wanking over websites nowadays. At one point he had a whisper app (FFS he is a mid 40s man, not a tween) about how he wanted to be treated like a slut girl etc.