Caitlyn Jenner

[Terfinator]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

Bysie-bye Phyllis ! Come back soon!

Or is the problem that you have now realised how unfair it is to let males compete against females. So you can no longer argue your case...

Most likely.

I think regarding sports, a lot of people don't understand the physiology and anatomy involved, so they basically think that taking 'female hormones' for a couple of years does reduce the differences to a fair level. They just don't understand the mechanics of sports, especially if they have never done any themselves (which is an awful lot of people, lets face it). So it's education thats needed really.

So, what do we say about the studies that have been done on trans twins that are identical?

I'd need to know a bit more about the twins. Late transitioning? Confused teenagers? Toddler boys who like Barbies? Also would want to know who was running and funding the studies and would want a neutral scientific person to check the methodology for me.

MRA? I just had to google that. I am not a male activist at all! The only straight men in my life are my husband and my brother. Other than that? The men I come across at work. Literally all of my social group is women.

Sorry PhyllisNights but with your acceptance of the transactivist mindset they're not women in your social group. They are non male.

https://www.google.ch/amp/www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-wont-be-referred-to-as-non-male-by-the-green-party-women-have-suffered-prejudice-because-of-their-a6967926.html%3Fampp*

How does that feel?

ineedmorelemonpledge it's probably a waste of time posting links for Phyllis. She only opens links if she likes the look of them, and that seems to exclude anything that might actually challenge her. (Which to be fair is probably anything more difficult than Jennifer yellow hat and Billy bluehat went up the hill today).

😂😂😂

Yes you're right noeffingidea but it makes me feel better at no extra effort.

Hush noeffing, as a probable mother you should be "coming from a place of love"!

You people are amazing. I applaud your patience and determination to put forward the arguments clearly and coherently yet again.

Here's an idea. As well as the Gender Critical Manifesto Thread, could we perhaps create an "Arguing About Transphobia" thread? This way, when people come onto other threads and bemoan how "transphobic" MN is, we can direct them there, so the original thread doesn't get derailed?

So much time and energy is taken up by arguing with people on the very basic issues, meaning that the meatier and more important stuff takes a back seat.

Worth a try but I notice when people come on here to argue they don't follow the links or even read the full thread before engaging. A lot of what was being as at the end of the night last night had already been said earlier in the thread.

Referring to me as phallus in a thread about Caitlyn Jenner where we've been discussing trans women? That pretty much goes back to my point about you referring to Caitlyn by male pronouns. As well as the general language I've seen in this thread. Take a look at the sub-forum subjects and so many of them seem to be about trans. It seems like you're all obsessed about it, like you're scared about it.

Oh, and you've had posts deleted in the past? That should tell you something.

Take a look at the sub-forum subjects and so many of them seem to be about trans. It seems like you're all obsessed about it, like you're scared about it.

Correct. Why do you think that is?

I don't really know what your angle is in this phyllis, but some of the comments you make are indeed very reminiscent of what MRAs say.

Taking the piss out of women for being scared is a well known tactic. Women's fear of men is entirely rational. Blaming women for their justifiable fears of men is gaslighting. Another well known tactic.

Please stop talking in acronyms and calling my friends non-male is extremely rude. And stop referring to me as that. I've always seen myself as a feminist, but a lot of your views seem to veer off the left, it all sounds extremely far-right feminist to me.

Why should we be scared of trans, though? They're just people. It's like when people were scared of gay people and said they were mentally ill, and were grouping them along with paedophiles. Time and time again in history we've seen minorities and people that we don't understand treated badly because people are scared of what is different, they're scared of the unknown.

Someone in here said they wouldn't like to see trans people being treated badly. Well, hate speech is exactly what fuels people to act out.

Oh stop it Phyllis , people have explained over and over again. You are either wilfully obtuse or persistently goady. Or both.

phyllis

I'm only going to say this one more time, people here do not hate trans people. We chat with them over and over on these threads. Many people have transwomen friends.

If they were campaigning for their own bathrooms, their own missions, we would all stand shoulder to shoulder.

A fully intact male, remaining attracted to women, who has a fetish about womanhood (80%), should not be campaigning for access to women and children. Homosexual transsexuals are not aligning themselves with this group. They are not the problem.

And it's not the same as homosexuality! LGB people do not demand anything.

I will stick my neck out, and stay there isn't a single soul on the feminist board who isn't fully supportive of gay rights.

There are many people in the LGBT community who want to drop the T. Transctivists campaigned relentlessly to add the T in the first place. Because they were aware of the ground swell of good opinion that the LGB community had engendered. They relied on people's acceptance of homosexuality to piggyback on their success.

But now the LGB community is having second thoughts - particularly transwomen's relentless persecution of lesbians. (Think about this, lesbians are being hounded. Festivals shutdown, gatherings attacked, graffiti daubed on lesbian spaces. Gay bars and clubs being closed because lesbians can't relax and gather in peace - all because these men see sex with a lesbian as the holy grail of validation).

I don't think all the evidence, stats, or opinions here will make any difference to the way you think. Hopefully though, you have absorbed enough to keep an open mind.

Phyllis we are not scared of trans people. We are scared that laws, policies and guidelines are being changed very quickly, without consultation or debate, in ways which harm women and children, in response to the trans agenda.

Summary

- The report of the House of Commons Women and Equalities Committee Transgender inquiry contains a number of welcome recommendations to improve the lives of transgender people in the UK.

- Transgender people should have the same rights as anyone else to be free from discrimination, to access the services that they need and to be treated with dignity and respect.

- However there are a series of recommendations in the report which, which, taken together, risk unintended consequences for the safety and wellbeing of women and girls.

- Adopting these recommendations would mean that violent male offenders could demand access to women only spaces and services such as refuges, rape crisis centres and prisons simply by claiming to identify as a woman, whether or not this was the case.

- There is already evidence that this is happening in the prison service in the UK.

- There is evidence from both the UK and internationally of people who were born male entering women only spaces dressed as women and going on to assault women.

- Whether or not these offenders are transgender is irrelevant since the recommendations in the report would facilitate this type of offending by making access to women only spaces dependent on an individual’s declaration that they identify as a woman with no need for any process of social or medical transition.

- The report also makes recommendations to reduce the assessment time before puberty blockers and cross sex hormones can be prescribed to children.

- Around 80% of children who present with Gender Identity Disorder (GID) go on to identify as their birth sex as adults. This would suggest the need for caution rather than encouraging early transition, particularly in view of the long term health risks of cross sex hormones.

- Trans people have the right to access the services that they need and there are real concerns about the safety of transwomen in particular if they are housed in the mainstream prison population in line with their biological sex. However the Committee’s recommendations in these areas are not the best way to address these issues and threaten the safety and wellbeing of women and girls.

Sorry for the big C&P but it's clear you don't follow links you don't like the look of. It's from here, where you will also find a link to the Women & Equalities Committee report.

MTT are male, they are just like any other men, some are tall, some are short, some are funny, some aren't, some are rapist, some aren't. We can't tell which men are going to hurt us by the clothes they wear - any suggestion if that would be ridiculous. So we have to treat MTT as we would every male person. Most men are happy not to go into female loos, hospital wards and shelters. I can't help but feel suspicious of the men that do.

If you are not happy with being called a non-man, take it up with the green party.

MTT, what does that mean? Can't find it anywhere on google.

Saying some are rapists and some aren't is like saying picking out one particular race, culture or religion and saying that some of them are rapists.

we have to treat MTT as we would every male person. Most men are happy not to go into female loos, hospital wards and shelters. I can't help but feel suspicious of the men that do
100% agree

Male to trans. You're as adept as using google as you are at critical thinking.

Here Phyllis, hone your critical thinking skills with the help of the late great Carl Sagan

The fine art of baloney detection

Would like to see this thread get back on track, re discussing Caitlyn Jenner, as this is why I'm reading this thread (because its interesting to see how CJ is more and more acting like an Autogynaphile and her family/friends slowly seeing this, including the Trans Rights Movement).
All the points Phyllis is making have been addressed over and over again in lots of other threads on Feminism Chat. If she wants clarity she should be courteous enough to start her own thread asking for the basics in Mumsnet Feminism, FYI Phyllis MTT is Male to Trans as most women here feel that a man cannot magically be MTF (Male To Female) to us and science that's an impossible lie.