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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

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Datun · 18/04/2017 13:38

BMacklin

Sorry, I can't find the link, but I read an article about how trans-women seem to get some kind of a 'pass' for being trans.

I'm not sure if it's a pity, or because they are men.

It's all part and parcel of this, you're so brave, you're so gorgeous malarkey. Men who are neither brave, nor gorgeous - by anyone's standards.

Or maybe it's the British thing of rooting for the underdog.

BMacklin · 18/04/2017 15:34

Lass oh I see. I assumed there was more to it.

Datun that's interesting. Maybe it's that people don't want to appear a transphobic so allowances are made?

numberseven · 18/04/2017 15:39

It's also just female socialization. "Oh but you're so pretty. I wish I had your wig hair"

BigDeskBob · 18/04/2017 15:50

I agree that transwomen get a 'pass'. The hyperbolic praise they receive for doing nothing out of the ordinary, or for being ordinary, is odd. I don't know if it's to patronise or pity, or if it's a need to keep mentally unwell men happy.

sticklebrix · 18/04/2017 15:53

Thanks Flyaway - interesting. I've always respected the strength and athleticism of ballet dancers whilst feeling uneasy about sex stereotyping in classical ballet.

But it's good to hear that ballet training isn't as segregated as I thought and that the plots are more nuanced than I realised.

sticklebrix · 18/04/2017 16:02

Datun I think that it's partly rooting for the underdog, partly sympathy and partly seeing a man as 'brave' for appearing to reject the status that comes with being male and joining us on the lowly female bench.

The 'you're gorgeous' is simple kindness, I think. Supportive of someone perceived as vulnerable.

sticklebrix · 18/04/2017 16:04

Just wanted to add that many trans people are indeed vulnerable and brave. But not female if they were born male.

FlyAwayPeter · 18/04/2017 16:08

What surprised me about the ballet story was that they received a merit for the Advanced Foundation exam

Indeed! Was he doing Advanced Foundation? Blimey, sign me up for Solo Seal NOW! I could be the oldest ever to pass.

terrylene · 18/04/2017 16:36

"I dance because I am a dancer" I think she needs to learn to point her feet a little.
Boys doing pointe :D
www.facebook.com/1006307885/videos/vb.1006307885/10209509751473113/?type=2&theater

Datun · 18/04/2017 16:39

Datun that's interesting. Maybe it's that people don't want to appear a transphobic so allowances are made?

The 'you're gorgeous' is simple kindness, I think. Supportive of someone perceived as vulnerable.

It's an odd one. And like a lot of this doesn't have just one answer.

Women, who are vulnerable, tend not to state it up front as a qualifier to how they want to be treated. They either don't engage at all, or tread very carefully to protect themselves.

I've noticed a lot of transwomen, particularly the ones who want to be on your side, will lead with the vulnerability aspect. It's a very effective silencing tool. You feel manipulated into walking on eggshells.

FlyAwayPeter · 18/04/2017 17:07

More spoofs on the "I'm a dancer" (best from around 0:55 secs in

It's a parody of a US gym clothes advert which had a (female) model doing a breathy voiceover on the freedom of being a dancer, while the visuals showed quite clearly (to those of us who know) what a crap ballet dancer she was.

But they skewer the weird fetishisation of ballet for some people.

Lumbricina · 18/04/2017 17:12

My mistake, Sophie took the intermediate foundation exam.

FlyAwayPeter · 18/04/2017 17:33

Boys doing pointe

Have just spent a joyful few minutes guffawing at that, terrylene

But to be serious for a moment. The boy on pointe in that vid is dancing Aurora in the final act of Sleeping Beauty. It's a showy-offy bravura bit for a prima ballerina. And the kids do it role-reversed, so the male "Aurora" does the bit where he holds an attitude on pointe, unsupported while he takes a rose from the (now) female suitor-princes etc etc.

But what's interesting is that as a trained boy, he does all the choreography for Aurora, the sleeping beauty (and he's a lovely fluid dancer) - he can do all the steps, and he's not camping it up or trying to "be" female. He can do the split on one leg (penché) and the turns, and the fluid arms & back. So the steps in ballet aren't sexed or even gendered - but it's the way they are put together in the choreography & the story telling, and the style any particular dancer gives them.

Very instructive in showing the stupidity of the "I want to dance the girl's ballet" and "If I want to dance ballet, I must be a girl" guff.

Does this mean that because I stumble through a breaking/street dance/hip hop class every week (I am good at ballet & terrible at street dance) I'm really actually a young man? Because breakdance is for boys & young men, isn't it

FlyAwayPeter · 18/04/2017 17:34

My mistake, Sophie took the intermediate foundation exam.

Even so ...

Pointing your feet occasionally is sort of required in ballet ...

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 18/04/2017 17:43

while the visuals showed quite clearly (to those of us who know) what a crap ballet dancer she was

From the brief clip on the BBC this person is a truly terrible dancer.

terrylene · 18/04/2017 17:48

They are lovely and so full of life, aren't they Smile

I have just looked at the BBC video again, and as a would be aged dancer of some years, it is rather embarrassing and too much like the video FlyAway posted.

CharlieSierra · 18/04/2017 20:35

Well that's probably the best video I've ever watched via a link on here. What a joy. I had 2 ballet dancers, 1 boy and 1 girl and it took me right back.

I can't believe that person got a merit either, when I watched it I assumed they'd let him do grade 5 or something, and taken pity on him.

CharlieSierra · 18/04/2017 20:46

Oh, I mean the boy doing pointe of course, not the transgender 'ballerina'.

Terfinator · 18/04/2017 21:23

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4419254/Caitlyn-Jenner-never-sex-woman-again.html

Our Cait is in the DM again. This time she's saying that she will no longer date women, only men

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Terfinator · 18/04/2017 21:25

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4422006/Model-Kendall-dream-tangerine-Harper-s-Bazaar.html

Oddly, Kendall isn't fitting with Caitlyn's narrative at the moment...

'I mean, I'm a girl and I like being a girl, but I've just never been into it like they have. I think I get that from my dad. I'd say I'm more of a Jenner than a Kardashian.'

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illegitimateMortificadospawn · 18/04/2017 21:27

Our Cait is in the DM again. This time she's saying that she will no longer date women, only men

Whatevs. The media really needs to starve Jenner of the oxygen of publicity.

numberseven · 19/04/2017 02:45

Our Cait is in the DM again. This time she's saying that she will no longer date women, only men

Isn't this quite typical AGP trajectory though. Now Cait can have their validation from men without being seen as gay.

GuardianLions · 19/04/2017 10:14

Terfinator That's interesting about Kendall - that she says her non-stereotyoical ungirly side that is not interested in clothes, comes from her dad... it does contest the idea that Bruce/Caitlyn is becoming his 'true self', who he has 'always been' on the inside.

GuardianLions · 19/04/2017 10:24

Isn't this quite typical AGP trajectory though. Now Cait can have their validation from men without being seen as gay.

The AGP's sexual orientation is towards themselves and their inner fantasy woman and I suppose this can now be supported by a male part-player because they lose the 'ick' factor about their penis rubbing against another man''s once it has been surgically inverted.

WankingMonkey · 19/04/2017 15:09

Remember Kellie Maloney on CBB
Watching paint dry was more interesting

All I remember of Kellie was that she appeared to try and get Audley to say he was unfomcortable, where Audley just seemed to not give a flying fuck.

And her squaring up to a woman, exactly as a bloke would, in an argument. It looked bloody awful.

And right after this we got tears in the diary room/to housemates about how Kellie is a totally different person to Frank but sometimes Frank comes out...Hmm