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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

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illegitimateMortificadospawn · 17/04/2017 21:21

There's a 35 year old 6'3" ballerina in today's DM who recently achieved their dream of doing a women's ballet exam after the awarding body relaxed its rules on eligibility for the women's exams.

WittgensteinsCat · 17/04/2017 21:57

Mortificado - I was just about to post the BBC link about the transgender ballerina:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39555703

I'm really not sure what to make of this. It just seems, well, a bit bizarre. How far does this encroachment have to go before people start seeing the obvious?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 17/04/2017 22:16

She was humphing around that studio like an elephant. She bears about as much resemblance to any of the ballerinas at Covent Garden as an actual elephant does.

AssassinatedBeauty · 17/04/2017 22:25

There was absolutely no reason that ballet dancer couldn't have happily been dancing ballet for as long as they wanted. Last I checked there are plenty of male ballet dancers.

BasketOfDeplorables · 17/04/2017 22:41

I was confused about that, too. Billy Elliot is not exactly a niche story - big film, big musical. Yet the video presents the idea that only girls can do ballet, that to want to do ballet makes you a girl.

FlyAwayPeter · 17/04/2017 22:49

ohh FFS, I do class with men who are learning ballet ot ti be "ballerinas". Darcey Bussell is a ballerina, and so is Tamara Rojo, but the vast majority of us plugging away at the barre are ballet students.

And to think that you have to dress like he does ... grr. He has probably fetished pointe shoes. Goodness knows why - they bloody hurt.

At my studio we used to have a clearly transgender MtT - she was utterly awful, doing her own thing in class, and getting in the way. Such male privilege.

FlyAwayPeter · 17/04/2017 22:52

And BTW, she's a totally shit dancer. You don't have to be male or female to point your fecking foot.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 17/04/2017 22:55

Perhaps when the male dancers have to bugger up their backs trying to lift 6'3" MTT ballerina there will be some recognition that it isn't possible to identify your way out of your born sex and physique. It doesn't seem to be getting through when it's only elite female athletes being bested (and battered) in wrestling, MMA and the like.

sticklebrix · 17/04/2017 23:21

I'm gender critical but in this case can't get too worked up about someone learning to dance in whatever clothes and style they choose. I don't care whether they are a good or bad dancer.

It's a pity about the trans hero narrative, though. And a shame that the BBC piece uncritically presented dancing in a feminine way as something only possible if you are or claim to be female.

I'd be much more impressed with 'first man to take women's ballet exam'. It would involve breaking all kinds of norms to do with men having to be masculine and women's endeavours being seen as 'less than'.

AnotherQuoll · 18/04/2017 07:17

I would've found it more interesting..Oh, I mean "brave and stunning" of him if he were to have critiqued the rigid gender roles in ballet and most other dance forms. But no, he's all good with that so long as he gets to do what he wants by saying he's a woman.

Datun · 18/04/2017 07:51

This may be harsh, but that man just can't dance. He's put no effort into acquiring the strength and athleticism of a ballet dancer (male or female).

His background is in macho male sport, he acts like an overgrown child in his tutu and crying at the results of his test.

It's got AGP written all over it. And the dance teacher is an unwitting accomplice.

BMacklin · 18/04/2017 08:08

Hmm would they let a woman who had been a racing driver and not trained to be a dancer all her life take the test?

FlyAwayPeter · 18/04/2017 08:12

I'd be much more impressed with 'first man to take women's ballet exam'.

Thing is, ballet exams don't really distinguish sex. Everyone in a class does the same thing. Men and women/girls & boys may learn to do the same steps with slightly different emphasis or style, but they're the same steps.

At about 11 or 12 (in on-track ballet education starting at around 8 yo) then boys start learning some of the big jumps in a really "big jump" way, and girls start to prepare to go on pointe.

But I've learned the so-called "male" jumps, and sometimes boys do pointe work prep, and actual pointe work, to strengthen ankles & feet.

The person in question seems to be a combination of the general fetishisation of "ballerina-dom" and AGP. A particularly nasty combination. He should just do class. Better than he does.

BigDeskBob · 18/04/2017 08:25

On a totally unrelated note, here's my favourite big train scene.

sticklebrix · 18/04/2017 09:17

Ah, FlyAway I didn't realise that ballet exams don't distinguish sex. Glad to hear it. From the outside, ballet has always struck me as a rather sex-stereotyped and segregated art form.

GuardianLions · 18/04/2017 09:21

I think there is fetishism of the pointe shoes - although its a bit like those blokes who like dancing in extreme high-heels on Money Supermarket ads- which is sort of subversive ( though I still get the impression they are slightly misogynistically trying to out-woman women), he is doing it as 'trans' - he is in this delusional fantasy that his inner-perfect-sexy-chic is an elegant ballerina. Do us all a favour and be a bloke in pointe shoes....

sticklebrix · 18/04/2017 10:15

Do us all a favour and be a bloke in pointe shoes....

Absolutely. Nothing wrong with that and no unhelpful perpetuation of sex stereotypes.

ineedmoreLemonPledge · 18/04/2017 11:44

As Silence of the Lambs was mentioned, I thought I'd add an enjoyable link where a previous article written by an MTT on a feminist webpage has been challenged piece by piece...

https://www.google.ch/amp/s/joannadw.wordpress.com/2016/08/17/how-to-like-totally-defend-a-psycho-sex-killer-of-women-from-like-a-totally-feminist-perspective/amp/

cuirderussie · 18/04/2017 12:14

ineedmore that is an outstanding dissection of a horrible warped piece I can't believe was published in Bitch. Well, I can, American feminism is totally ruined by now. Referring to Buffalo Bill as she, wtf?

I've always liked the way Clarice wasn't (yawn) "badass". The way she hyperventilates in the final scene, her hands shaking with fear as she aims her gun is so human.

FlyAwayPeter · 18/04/2017 12:50

Oh, ballet participates hugely in gendered stereotyping in performance stories, and has done from its inception. But there's an interesting twist: in Giselle, for example, the typical boy & girl romance, but boy is really prince in disguise, falling in love with a simple peasant girl, dumps her, she goes mad & dies. That's the first act. So far, so 1841.

But in the 2nd act, the Prince seeks out the spirit of Giselle, who is now a Wili - one of the ghosts of girls who all died from being spurned by their lovers. They seek out men & pitilessly dance them to their deaths. Revenge by pointe shoe!

In a standard professional class, the men & women all dance together. Towards the end, the men will do different jumps to the women, and the women will do different turns. When I go to an advanced class (less & less often at my advanced age), we all do the same thing, but the men/boys are encouraged to add stuff to their jumps, or the teacher will give them a different ending to a combination of steps.

But I've learnt all the same steps and same jumps. I remember one class I used to go to when I lived in the US, and there was a guy in the class that I'd race with across the floor. Jumping with the men teaches you how to get their speed & lift.

And here's a man in pointe shoes:

All these fake transsexuals start to make good ol' male drag queens look somehow wholesome, even though the whole concept of drag is historically based on misogyny.

Lumbricina · 18/04/2017 13:02

What surprised me about the ballet story was that they received a merit for the Advanced Foundation exam. Looking at the clip of them dancing I find this baffling.

BMacklin · 18/04/2017 13:05

I thought that was just me Lumbricina

hhorvath · 18/04/2017 13:06

"When I was a child I wanted to be a ballet dancer. My mum said only girls are ballet dancers. That's when I knew I was trans"

Is this some kind of weird joke?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 18/04/2017 13:08

Hmm would they let a woman who had been a racing driver and not trained to be a dancer all her life take the test?

I assume as with Royal College of Music exams you pays your exam fee to the RAD and you sit the exam. It doesn't mean this person is going to get a place at the Royal Ballet School or any other school or company.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 18/04/2017 13:15

Oh, I mean "brave and stunning" of him if he were to have critiqued the rigid gender roles in ballet and most other dance forms

Classical ballet has by its very rigid gendered roles. And tough, if you don't like that find another art form more to your liking.

Contemporary dance is much less so, other than it is always going to be easier for male dancers to lift and carry female dancers.